TSU: Some Immigrants Shouldn't Be Citizens

Legal Human Rights
21

You’re right of course, hsiadogah, people do ask the most intrusive questions here…!

The PRC Nationality Law revokes your nationality automatically when you get a new citizenship. Of course they treat you as a foreigner until they want to detain you and throw away the key. Then you’re Chinese all over again. I am still very wary about the PRC government and always advise my wife to keep her political opinions close to her chest. It may sound a bit OTT but people just disappear in China all the time. It is still 100% a police state, something many foreigners overlook, but I suspect most Taiwanese know. Hence the fear and hatred of China. I hope they are also smart enough to know that not all Chinese people support the CCP and indeed many have suffered at the hands thereof. This new generation I don’t quite get. Many of them really don’t know anything about China prior to 1990 except the nonsense they’re taught in schools. Are they fervent nationalistic bolloxes out of ignorance, fear, or sheer nastiness? They worry me too, but they’re cowardly pawns all of them who really have no power over anything the CCP may or may not do, and quite frankly the degree of their public profile is determined by the Xuan Chuan Bu anyway. (Propaganda Dept.?)

To put the German thing to rest: I was talking about German citizens being assessed on their Jewishness or not in the early to mid-30s, before the Holocaust. Anyway, Germany is not the only example of this. How many generations of ethnic Koreans are their in Japan who are not allowed Japanese citizenship?

Weapons aimed at Taiwan… I agree. Taiwan should have The Bomb in my opinion.

22

[quote]What to do then? Deny them citizenship. That’s the only solution, if you are to be sure of not granting citizenship to mainland Chinese whole loyalties are in doubt.
[/quote]
What about other nationalities and races? Obviously it’s not just the fomer PRC citizens that pose a risk.
The biggest question in my mind is where does it stop if it stops at all?

23

I suppose we could start the process of building a country people would actually want to live in, Taiwanese, PRC, all, and not sell to the highest bidder?

Nah. Fuggit. Let’s just make a load of dosh and bugger off.

24

:lol: :lol: :lol:

25

hexuan,

Why not? - all the Taiwanese are doing it?

26

Only the richer Taiwanese actually suceed. The rest are stuck.

27

Simply not true, and in the case of the ROC, not true either.
[/quote]

Actually according to what I have been able to find on the Internet it is true.
I believe one source said 93 countries allow it but don’t quote me on that (this means if there are 193 countries in the world, then the majority do not allow dual citizenship (geography.about.com/cs/countries … ntries.htm).

Just a few sources to start your search…

cbc.ca/news/background/immig … nship.html

southern-cross-group.org/dua … faq_7.html

[quote]Countries Which Prohibit Dual Citizenship

Austria, Belgium, Brunei, Burma, Chile, China, Denmark, Ecuador, Fiji, Finland, Germany, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Iran*, Japan, Kenya, Kiribati, Korea, Malaysia, Mauritius, Nepal, Norway, Papua New Guinea, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Romania, Singapore, Solomon Islands, Thailand, Venezuela, Vietnam, Zimbabwe. [/quote]
southern-cross-group.org/dua … aq_11.html
(yes there is a list of those that allow it as well but I don’t want to post everything here… :wink: btw I added the bolding…but in support of dual citizens I offer this money.cnn.com/2004/10/08/real_es … passports/ )

globalpolicy.org/nations/sov … 6swiss.htm

globalpolicy.org/nations/sov … nindex.htm

28

[quote]Countries Which Prohibit Dual Citizenship

Austria, Belgium, Brunei, Burma, Chile, China, Denmark, Ecuador, Fiji, Finland, Germany, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Iran*, Japan, Kenya, Kiribati, Korea, Malaysia, Mauritius, Nepal, Norway, Papua New Guinea, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Romania, Singapore, Solomon Islands, Thailand, Venezuela, Vietnam, Zimbabwe.[/quote]

That’s hardly most.

Anyway in the origianl context, Satellite TV seemed to be suggesting nearly all countries prohibit dual nationality, and that was kindof irrelevant to the discussion anyway, considering that the ROC does not prohibit dual nationality.

Serious question for Satellite TV an those that share his opinions above - what is the logical reason for denying dual citizenship to those born outside of Taiwan, but allowing it to those born here?

Brian

29

[quote=“Bu Lai En”][quote]Countries Which Prohibit Dual Citizenship

Austria, Belgium, Brunei, Burma, Chile, China, Denmark, Ecuador, Fiji, Finland, Germany, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Iran*, Japan, Kenya, Kiribati, Korea, Malaysia, Mauritius, Nepal, Norway, Papua New Guinea, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Romania, Singapore, Solomon Islands, Thailand, Venezuela, Vietnam, Zimbabwe.[/quote]

That’s hardly most.

Anyway in the origianl context, Satellite TV seemed to be suggesting nearly all countries prohibit dual nationality, and that was kindof irrelevant to the discussion anyway, considering that the ROC does not prohibit dual nationality.

Serious question for Satellite TV an those that share his opinions above - what is the logical reason for denying dual citizenship to those born outside of Taiwan, but allowing it to those born here?

Brian[/quote]
Sorry that wasn’t meant to be a definitive list.
As for logical reason to deny dual citizenship to those born outtside of Taiwan, but allow it to those born here…
I think Jesus summed it up pretty well…
“No one can serve two masters” (Matt.6:24).
As Hexuan has also pointed out he has three passports so which country should he be loyal to? Granted this is not a problem in peace time but I can see how it could be a problem during a war - the civil war in the U.S. etc.

Hartzell

[quote]
You have to consider that when applying for naturalization in Taiwan, foreigners who desire to keep their original nationality do so for many reasons, including very important legal issues in their “home” countries, such as inheritance rights, property ownership rights, insurance policy matters, health insurance matters, ownership/investment in businesses, and a wide range of other legal issues. In most cases, these matters are of no concern to the ROC government [/quote]

Do you really think before you post?
Dual citizenship has nothing to do with inheritance rights, property ownership rights, insurance policy matters, ownership/investment in businesses - at least not for Americans. I can leave all my money to anyone in any country I want. They just have to know they are in line to get it and claim it…pretty much the same as if I was living in the U.S.
And health insurance matters is definitely not a concern if you’re not living in the U.S. - we don’t have national health care like here, in case you forgot.
On a more personal note, IF I were to surrender my U.S. citizenship to live in another country I, personally, would sever business ties, etc. (I tried my hand at being an absentee landlord and it didn’t work too well)and only maintain family ties - which if I was in line to inherit something wouldn’t be a problem at all (except I’d have to pay taxes).
Unlike some people I don’t take dual citizenship lightly, it’s not like having two driver’s licenses. If I chose to may a new country my home then I wouldn’t be trying to hang on to a lifeline back to the U.S. - it’s all or nothing. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

30

[quote=“Bu Lai En”][quote]Countries Which Prohibit Dual Citizenship

Austria, Belgium, Brunei, Burma, Chile, China, Denmark, Ecuador, Fiji, Finland, Germany, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Iran*, Japan, Kenya, Kiribati, Korea, Malaysia, Mauritius, Nepal, Norway, Papua New Guinea, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Romania, Singapore, Solomon Islands, Thailand, Venezuela, Vietnam, Zimbabwe.[/quote]

That’s hardly most.

Anyway in the origianl context, Satellite TV seemed to be suggesting nearly all countries prohibit dual nationality, and that was kindof irrelevant to the discussion anyway, considering that the ROC does not prohibit dual nationality.

Serious question for Satellite TV an those that share his opinions above - what is the logical reason for denying dual citizenship to those born outside of Taiwan, but allowing it to those born here?

Brian[/quote]

I don’t know if you can put it that way; someone who wasn’t born here can acquire dual citizenship after renouncing their original citizenship(s) and becoming an ROC citizen. It’s the order that you acquire them. They presume that anyone with an ROC parent/grandparent, etc. is first automatically an ROC citizen. Actually, I agree with Hartzell, et al, in that I think automatic citizenship based on ethnicity should be done away with. As far as the renouncing thing itself, loopholes for ABC aside, it’s hardly unique to Taiwan, inconvenient though it may be.

31

Is the requirement that the grandparent or whatever be ETHNIC Chinese, or have an ROC passport? Because lots of marginally Chinese people might have come by an ROC passport. (Think Chinese minorities.)

I wonder how feasible it would be to forge family ties with someone with the desired nationality? Birth certificates vary a lot and are usually much easier to fake than passports. Hell, a lot of people didn’t have them at all because they were born at home, and anyway why would they need a certificate declaring that they’d been born? (went the reasoning)

Hsiadogah:

Hitler very truthfully pointed out that Jews were the movers and shakers behind Communism, and wanted to turn Germany into a Communist country whether the Germans wanted it or not. Rhetoric aside (“international Jew,” nationalist fascist), both groups’ allegiance was primarily ethno-national.

32

Denmark does in fact allow dual citizenship.

However, conditions apply:

  1. If you are born with dual citizenship, you can keep it or life. IE if you are an ROC citizen because your father or mother is one, and yuo ar a Danish citizen because your other parent is a Danish citizen, you can keep both citizenships, as you having both citizenships is not due to any action taken by you.

  2. If you come from a country, where renouncing or losing citizenships is impossible, or if you are a refuge, where any attempt to return in order to renounce your citizenship will see you either in prison or dead, you may keep your original citizenship in addition to your new Danish one.

33

[quote]As for logical reason to deny dual citizenship to those born outtside of Taiwan, but allow it to those born here…
I think Jesus summed it up pretty well…
“No one can serve two masters” (Matt.6:24). [/quote]

You miss my point entirely.

You have given a reason why noone should be allowed dual nationality. I am asking for a logical reason why some people (those who have ROC nationality first, then acquire another) should be allowed dual nationality, but others (those who have another nationality first, but then acquire ROC nationality) should not. If the reason is ‘noone can serve two masters’ (their loyalty is in question, then surely this applies equally to both groups, so neither should be allowed dual nationality.

So what’s the logiacl reason? Is there one? (This isn’t a rhetorical question - I’m curious).

Brian

34

[quote=“Bu Lai En”]

So what’s the logical reason? Is there one? (This isn’t a rhetorical question - I’m curious).

Brian[/quote]

Oh, a logical reason for this? Legal racism, a need to protect ones own kind, direct benefit for the legislators who passed it… I think that’s where you are.

It does appear lopsided, and it is lopsided. No of the reasons for baning dual citizenships given have any bearing on this situation, or make sense in it.

A loophole to be used for those with money and power… Well, what explanation do you need?

In that light, it seems fairly logical to me - not fair, but that’s beside the point.

35

I think it’s perfectly logical:
There are a set of requirements that you must fulfill if you want to become a citizen of the ROC. These include renouncing other citizenship, residency (and financial? oaths of fealty? health?). None of these requirements apply to people entitled to citizenship as a birth-right.

Any ROC citizen is allowed dual-nationality.

Maybe I’m missing something, but that seems to sum up the situation. I assume someone like Poagao (who has given up his original nationality) is just as entitled to become a dual national (ROC & some other nation) as any other ROC citizen.

36

[quote=“Bu Lai En”][quote]As for logical reason to deny dual citizenship to those born outtside of Taiwan, but allow it to those born here…
I think Jesus summed it up pretty well…
“No one can serve two masters” (Matt.6:24). [/quote]

You miss my point entirely.

You have given a reason why noone should be allowed dual nationality. I am asking for a logical reason why some people (those who have ROC nationality first, then acquire another) should be allowed dual nationality, but others (those who have another nationality first, but then acquire ROC nationality) should not. If the reason is ‘noone can serve two masters’ (their loyalty is in question, then surely this applies equally to both groups, so neither should be allowed dual nationality.

So what’s the logiacl reason? Is there one? (This isn’t a rhetorical question - I’m curious).

Brian[/quote]
Sorry I should have been clearer…I think most people are more loyal to the country of their birth than their adopted countries and therefore a native born Taiwanese’s loyalty is less likely to be questioned than someone who just wanted to become a citizen because it is more convienent. Personally I agree …I don’t see why any country would allow dual citizenship.
Mr. He…how can you call it legal racism? Is it based on race? Many countries have ‘grandfather’ clauses, etc. to make it easier for decendants to get citizenship - Ireland comes to mind.

37

[quote=“Vannyel”]
Mr. He…how can you call it legal racism? Is it based on race? Many countries have ‘grandfather’ clauses, etc. to make it easier for decendants to get citizenship - Ireland comes to mind.[/quote]

simply because they allow dual citizenship for their own, but not for the wanting to become their own.

38

See the hair splitting that I was complaining about earlier?

Because it is technically possible for an ROC citizen to not be ethnically Chinese or Taiwanese aboriginal, it is argued that ipso facto the policy is not racist.

Right. A law prohibiting people with black curly hair and thick lips is not racist because Black people can be albino and therefore this law does not exclude people on the basis of race, only on the basis of hair and lip type. Similarly, a law prohibiting people with “Mc” in their surnames is not discriminatory against Scottish or Irish people because some of them are not called “Mc”-something.

Most Western countries have anti-discrimination laws against this kind of wording and policy and so I assumed that Westerners here would not need this spelt out. But obviously I was wrong.

In the beginning, Taiwanese people (I mean ROC citizens) were all either ethnically Chinese or aboriginal. These people then get a US passport. They are allowed to keep it AND their Taiwanese nationality because they were Taiwanese first. Now they are Taiwanese AND American. We will call them The Privileged Group.

However, an American (who could be of any ethnic background) who wishes to become Taiwanese, must give up his US citizenship to become Taiwanese. He is now a Taiwanese citizen only. We will call them The Less Priveleged Group.

So. It is therefore an accident, not an intention, that all the people in The Priveleged Group are ethnically Chinese (or aboriginal - but I think the drafters of this legislation couldn’t care less about the aboriginals), and the members of The Less Priveleged Group are not ?

Hmmmmm.

And is there anyone who thinks The Privileged Group, with their two passports, will show their loyalty to Taiwan by fighting the PRC?

Bu Lai En. No one will answer the logical question. Vannyel has said the first country is the one we tend to be loyal to. I disagree, and I question the meaning of the word “loyalty” . No one will provide a definition of that, either.

Many people who deliberately adopt new nationalities do so because their original country was a shithole they couldn’t wait to leave.

Am I the only one who sees the irony in the Taiwanese getting US passports because Taiwan is a shithole they couldn’t wait to leave, and then denying Americans ROC passports ? And am I the only one whose jaw falls to the floor when these rats leaving the sinking ship are regarded as more loyal than someone who chooses to live here ?!

This is simply about ethnic purity, nothing more, nothing less. Look how aghast the government was when brown students from dispicable SEA countries were getting ROC nationality after studying here for 4 years. They weren’t long passing that law, were they? Ho ho ho.

Roll me another, this is great fun. :unamused:

39

[quote]I think it’s perfectly logical:
There are a set of requirements that you must fulfill if you want to become a citizen of the ROC. These include renouncing other citizenship, residency (and financial? oaths of fealty? health?). None of these requirements apply to people entitled to citizenship as a birth-right.
[/quote]

You also miss the point. I understand the process. I’m talking about the reasoning behind it. IE why? (not because that’s the rules, but why those rules - what’s the justification.

Yes, this is a logical answer, and it had occured to me, but I disagree. I don’t see why that would be the case. Someone taking on a second nationality is showing a desire to become a citizen of that country. They are consciously choosing that country in a way that you don’t do by just getting born there. So if anything, it should be the other way round.

Brian

40

[quote=“Bu Lai En”][quote]
Serious question for Satellite TV an those that share his opinions above - what is the logical reason for denying dual citizenship to those born outside of Taiwan, but allowing it to those born here?

DAVID SAYS :Maybe I’m missing something, but that seems to sum up the situation. I assume someone like Poagao (who has given up his original nationality) is just as entitled to become a dual national (ROC & some other nation) as any other ROC citizen.

Brian[/quote][/quote]

Yes, I agree that their is no logical reason for it. My son was born here but he doesnt have ROC nationality. It’s only recently that children born of foreign fathers can have ROC nationality. No financial requirement to meet, only the residency period and a clean bill of health and police clearances.

I also agree with Hexuan when he talks about racism in Taiwan. This is one of the racist countries I’ve lived in. I like to shock some of the locals by asking which country they were refugees from ( burma?, vietnam? Loas? ) when they call me Mei Guo Ren. They certainly take offense to that.

Those who have become ROC nationals now have the priveledge of becoming nationals of other countries, yes.

I fnd most of the local government laws to lack commom sense or logic, along with the people who work in these offices.

A long time ago my ARC thru marriage was stamped Not Allowed to Assume Employment in ROC… but to get an exit & entry permits ( the good old days ) you needed a tax form from the tax office. You live here more than 183 days they want you to pay tax. But I’m not allowed to work I shows them… DUH!!! Oh they says… hmmm huuhh what to do… ?