Simply not true, and in the case of the ROC, not true either.
Absurd. Of course it’s relevant.
Brian[/quote]
Make your choice then. Stay on your ARC or becoma an ROC citizen.
There was no ARC that was going to allow me the freedoms I now have as an ROC citizen back in 1990, 1995, or 2000. I had a choice, become an ROC national or leave Taiwan. I wanted to stay, so I chose.
Sure I would have liked it if I didnt have to renounce Aussie citizenship, but again, for those from Canada, Australia, NZ, UK… we can resume our citizenship. Thos from the US can’t… they were born in the wrong country.
It appears to me that those politicians who jabber on about concepts to do with “international law” and “reciprocity” really really don’t care. This is one of the reasons I have little time for the political parties here.
It is a clear principle of Taiwan’s interaction with the outside world that they will take as much as possible, and give nothing. Now, it is fine to do all you can to get what you can out of others, but the general outcome is that unless you are a superpower, you have to give a little. Taiwan can enact laws restricting foreigners in a way Taiwanese would not be restricted in Western countries because most Western countries (a) don’t have time to single out the Taiwanese in a fit of tit-for-tat pettiness, and (b) believe in applying benefits to residents of their countries as broadly as possible.
Taiwan is making life very difficult for itself. The only conclusion I can come to is that Taiwan simply does not want foreigners to live here. If that is its attitude then fine.
To Taiwan:
I’m very sorry China wants to crap on you. That’s a bummer. But there are plenty of candidates around the world more deserving of international pity. I mean, you guys have money, can travel, have hot and cold running water, sanitation, very little prospect of being locked up for life for no reason, the list goes on. Given your island’s strategic importance, you also have the ear of the US State Department and a US domestic act of congress providing for military assistance from the most powerful country in the world. So. China is wrong to point missiles at you. Also wrong to prevent you from being part of the WHO. And China insults your dignity at every turn. But you are all rich. Rich beyond the wildest dreams of most of the world’s population. And what do you do? Run around after a bunch of tin pot dictators and banana republics while turning your back on a very sympathetic Western population who want to live on your island, proudly adopt your nationality, and assist you in your attempts to publicise your grievances. Smart. Brilliant. Outstanding.
You whinge. You demand this, you demand that. Like a little baby. You want the whole world order turned on its head tomorrow cause China called you a poof. It doesn’t work like that. It takes years. We don’t like China any more than you do. We’re in it for the money, just like you are. But enough already with the affected indignance. We’re bored of it now. Sort your xenophobia out and start acting like the mature first world country you think you are. Develop a concept of universal rights, try to get beyond the idea that rights only extend to citizens of your country and everyone else can fuck off. That’s a tired old tool of the sort of dictatorships the world community you so want to join set itself against after WW2. Okay, we’re not perfect, but we’re trying. With your Taiwanese ultra-nationalism you resemble China more than America, Canada, or Europe. Would it absolutely flabberghast you to know that a settled person in the UK enjoys almost similar rights to a citizen? Oh no! Of course not. Because your country’s immigrants enjoy those rights whilst denying the same to us. Silly me. I forgot. You’re not stupid. Just very very cynical. We’re the stupid ones. Doh!
Six-year driving licences
A telephone and ADSL
Being allowed to take a driving test with less than 12 months on an ARC
A mobile phone
A credit card
Naturalisation on the terms we offer you
Too much to ask? You can have all of those things except (6) stepping off the plane in my country on the same terms I can. Don’t ever ever insult my intelligence with this “reciprocity” crap again. It’s so transparent. Your move.
The Taiwanese in my circle of friends all know this. Some of them seem slightly embarasssed when it comes up in discussion though generally they’re surprised that foreigners resident here notice.
I have great sympathy for Taiwan’s position in the world, but the fact that the Taiwanese elite have sold their own economic security to China gives the lie to much of the whingeing. After Tiananmen Square, when economic relations between China and the West were in the deep freeze, Taiwanese seized the chance to rush in with investment and in the process sold their own security.
Now they have the nerve to lobby the EU to keep the ban on arms sales. Now, hell, I don’t think the EU should sell arms to China either. But when your economic elite has hollowed out a substantial proportion of your economy and offshored it to China, don’t go bleating to the Europeans about the business they may choose to do there.
If patriotism means making sacrifices for your fellow countrymen and -women (rather than parroting empty slogans), Taiwanese, in my opinion, are no better than anybody else and probably worse than most. It would take some effort for foreign residents or naturalised citizens to be less loyal and patriotic to Taiwan than the bulk of the natural-born citizens.
It’s the Taiwanese disease: obsess about the formalities and the appearance, forget about the substance. :s
On the questions of loyalty discussed earlier in the thread: the Belfast writer Robert McLiam Wilson (Ripley Bogle, Eureka Street, etc) put it nicely…
‘… people have complicated private feelings about their city or country where affection is laundered with criticism. It is not compulsory to have some kind of brand loyalty to your birthplace.’
That goes for the place where you live and settle too…
Yes Hexuan points 1 to 5 should be addressed immediately.
However for point 6 this would be impractible. You’d have to write laws which would discriminate between other nationals. Discrimination… hmmmm No.
So a single standard has to apply. When I get elected to the senate I will push for the naturalization law to change allowing foreigners the right to obtain ROC nationality without renouncing their own citizenship.
Wish me luck and start donating to my campign fund soon lol
I always sound like a whinging Taiwan-hater, but I’ve always pointed out the righteousness of Taiwan’s position to people unfamiliar with Taiwan. When the Taiwanese are ready to build a country worth living in, and show (rather than tell) the world how great Taiwan is then I will be ready to shout its praises from the rooftops.
Also why I (just about) hope the pan-greens get the legislative majority they’ve been asking for. Let’s see if they really can be more reformist, progressive and enlightened once the legislative means to be so are in their hands.
Being allowed to take a driving test with less than 12 months on an ARC
A mobile phone
A credit card
Naturalisation on the terms we offer you
Too much to ask? You can have all of those things except (6) stepping off the plane in my country on the same terms I can. Don’t ever ever insult my intelligence with this “reciprocity” crap again. It’s so transparent. Your move.[/quote]
While I agree with the thrust of your argument, I’ve managed to accumulate numbers 2 through 5- in my own name and without sponsors. Of course that’s in Taitung, where the ignorance level about all things foreign can sometimes give wiggle room.
Being allowed to take a driving test with less than 12 months on an ARC
A mobile phone
A credit card
Naturalisation on the terms we offer you
Too much to ask? You can have all of those things except (6) stepping off the plane in my country on the same terms I can. Don’t ever ever insult my intelligence with this “reciprocity” crap again. It’s so transparent. Your move.[/quote]
While I agree with the thrust of your argument, I’ve managed to accumulate numbers 2 through 5- in my own name and without sponsors. Of course that’s in Taidong, where the ignorance level about all things foreign can sometimes give wiggle room.[/quote]
That’s what most of us really want, I think!
[/quote]
So let me see if I get this straight…it’s good enough to live here and make money but we have nothing to praise about it. I am confused…hexuan said…“when the Taiwanese are ready to build a country worth living in” and you said 'Me too"…but you’re both living here now, right? So you are living in a country not worth living in?
Is that about right? Just checking.
Now as for:
[quote]
Six-year driving licences -[color=green] I just renewed my one year driver’s license, for free with no hassle…what’s the big deal[/color]
A telephone and ADSL - [color=green]so you need a cosigner - in the U.S. every utility company requires either a cosigner or a hefty deposit, no big deal[/color]
Being allowed to take a driving test with less than 12 months on an ARC - [color=green]most ARCs are issued for one year so this shouldn’t be an issue…besides you can’t make enough money in Taiwan to recover the cost of moving here if you’re going to stay less than a year or two. AND if you’re fresh of the boat, the last thing you need to do is drive in Taiwan.[/color]
A mobile phone [color=green]- three words – prepaid phone card (simple, easy, and you won’t go over your budget if you have to prepay - once again, you can’t just walk into a cell phone store in the U.S. and pick up a cell phone with some kind of deposit or cosigner (or a credit history that is verifiable)[/color]
A credit card [color=green] - can’t get this in the U.S. either - not without the infamous deposit or cosigner (or a verifiable credit history)[/color]
Naturalisation on the terms we offer you [color=green]- now this one is a little more difficult. Let’s see…You decide to give me 500 pounds for Christmas, am I ‘required’ to give me 500 pounds in return? Of course not! What you choose to give me (Britain to Taiwan) and what I choose to give you (Taiwan to Britain) aren’t required to be the same unless it is a written legal contract. If you (Britain) think it’s unfair that I (Taiwan) only gave you 5 pounds (limited naturalization) after you gave me 500 pounds (unlimited naturalization) then maybe next Christmas (legislative session) you will readjust the amount you plan on giving me. That’s your (Britain’s) responsiblity not mine (Taiwan’s). Don’t blame me (Taiwan) if you’re (Britain is) stupid enough to give me 500 pounds for 5 pounds…sounds like you (Britain is) are the one with the screw loose not me (Taiwan). [/color] [/quote]
Fair enough, we’re not all from the US. So a single person in the US can’t get a phone or utilities without finding another person to “co-sign”? I find that hard to believe.
Perhaps you don’t need a motorbike or car, or a phone you can use abroad. I do, and so do many others here. I also want to take the “big bike” test, but in order to do that I need to renew my passport and get my ARC extended for over a year because the DMV hate foreigners. Awesome hassle.
I am not trying to be argumentative here. As you said, not everyone is from the U.S. perhaps it is different in most other countries.
I have kept my driver’s license from the U.S. active so I can use that when I return to the U.S. on vacation. Since it would be impossible for me to fly back from the U.S. to handle any “emergency” in Taiwan, I don’t see the reason to have a phone active there; however, if they do have prepaid SIMS in the U.S., I do have a tri-band phone I can use there.
Sorry if you find it hard to believe the information about phones or utilities in the U.S. but I can tell you that an American citizen getting a phone or utilities for the first time can’t do so without a cosigner or big deposit as well. The same applies to Americans getting a major credit card…regardless of your income, if it is your first card you are normally required to have a cosigner or place a deposit (equal to the amount of credit you want) before they will issue you a card.
My ARC was renewed for exactly one year…and I had no trouble getting my license renewed. Sorry, I am not being difficult, I truly don’t understand. Have you been turned away because your ARC wasn’t issued for over one year? Due to the recent discussions on forumosa.com I expected problems when I went to renew my license but as I explained there were none. My company only provides one year contracts so it is impossible for me (a single guy) to get an ARC that is valid for longer than one year.
It probably depends on the circumstances, but I got my first credit card, phone line, and electric accounts set up in the US with no credit history, no cosignor and no deposit. You may not get approved for any credit card you apply for, and you’ll probably have a sucky credit limit like $500 at first, but you should be able to get one as long as you have some sort of income. The only cases I’ve heard of with people needing to put a deposit for utilities were because they had a bad credit history already. What sucks is that I have a great credit rating in the US now, but nobody in Taiwan will take that into account. (I have two credit cards here, but they are additional cards issued on my wife’s accounts.)
Vanneyel - You were doing pretty well arguing the details of drivers licences and such but then you had to go and blow it with that silly Christmas gift analogy. I am not aware of anyone here complaining about the citizenship rights extended to foriegners in their home countries. What they are saying is that those same rights should be extended to us here. My wife lived in Canada for five years and became a full citizen. I have been here five years and have an ARC. Is this fair?
Under the current conditions you are right. I do choose not to become a citizen. I think Hexuan spelled it out pretty well. The Taiwanese government doesn’t force it’s own citizens to make choices about whether or not to give up their citizenship. Our governments don’t either. Why is it exactly that we are singled out for such second class treatment?
bob…I am surprised that my little story was over your head…please allow me this change to explain in very simple english – without the cute story.
THERE IS NO REQUIREMENTS THAT RIGHTS BE EXTENDED TO FOREIGNERS LIVING IN TAIWAN THAT ARE EXTENDED TO FOREIGNERS LIVING IN CANADA (or any other country).
Now ask yourself why ‘should’ you be able to live in Taiwan for five years and become a full citizen? Just because your wife lived it Canada for five years and became a full citizen?? So what about the person whose spouse lives in XXXX country and becomes a full citizen after one year. Does that mean their spouse should be able to become a Taiwan citizen after one year while you have to wait five years? What about the spouse in YYYY country who has to live there 20 years before he can become a citizen…should Taiwan make that country’s spouses wait 20 years while you only have to wait 5 years and XXXX only has to wait one year? No, it doesn’t make a damn bit of sense. Each country in the world has it’s own particular citizenship laws…93 countries allow some form of dual citizenship while 100 countries do not allow dual citizenship (check the website I posted earlier or do your own research to find out which ones). Some countries make you wait 7 years and renounce your old citizenship, others make you wait 5 years and allow you to keep your old citizenship. Some countries allow their citizens to acquire a second citizenship with no change in their current citizenship while other countries immediately strip your native citizenship rights as soon as you acquire a second citizenship.
So, in summary, bob, for the time being, Taiwan is a sovereign nation with the right to design it’s citizenship laws anyway it sees fit without any regard to what you or I may think. The government is not required to form special reciprocity rules for EACH and EVERY sovereign nation that allows Taiwanese to become citizens either. It is not even required to allow anyone but native born people to become citizens. Yes, that’s right, it could even not allow foreigners to become citizens at all and that would be perfectly legal.
Have a nice day bob, and feel free to ask any more questions. I am always willing to help out.
BTW…don’t worry I am not planning on buying you an expensive x-mas gift so you won’t be required to buy me one in return.
Vanneyel darling try to relax. Like you say it is quite simple. Taiwan has no problems with it’s native born citizens enjoying dual citizenship. Foriegners however are not extended the same consideration. That is the way it is and it is not “fair”. In my opinion the principle of reciprocity should be applied here. If Canada allows dual citizenship for Taiwanese citizens then Taiwan should allow it for Canadian citizens.
bob I am calm, but the use of the word ‘should’ implies a judgement and is not objective therefore not a very good argument. As for me, I think no country should ever allow dual citizenship, it should be all or nothing…keep it simple.
