Theres a show in Japan where they get the foreigners on a talk show and they insult Japan. It has a Jerry Springer feeling to it. The audience boos and gets defensive, etc.
I’ve heard that the panel show that I was talking about is in fact modeled on a Japanese TV show. Perhaps the one you mention? Given the stunning lack of originality in local programming, I wouldn’t be surprised.
I know this is a place for non-Asian foreigners to rant about Taiwan, but I figure I’ll bring in a bigger perspective.
quote[quote]Originally posted by Mai LongDong:I've lived here for about 19 years and the one thing I've found exists is sheer XENOPHOBIA compounded by one of the worst cases of gulliability on earth. Are all Taiwanese like[/quote]I’ve lived in the states for about that long and have seen fair share amounts of xenophobic behavior (toward Asians and other minorities) as well ('though Americans are more skeptical than gullible). The smaller the minority population in a particular city, the worst it is. Which is why I like living in large cities.
My point is: ignorant people are everywhere especially places where people are not educated. How does one get educated? By traveling aboard. Certainly NOT by local media. All media are bias. Period. Is Taiwanese media worst than you home country? Perhaps in certain aspects, but not in others. Shoud they be the unbias, “enlightened” media like your home country? I hope not.
The show in question is trash TV similar to Jerry Springers. Are all Americans as weird, stupid, and racist like the trash they put on Jerry Springers? Of course not. So, using the worst of Taiwanese TV to illustrate the attitute Taiwanese have toward foreigners is unfair. However, it certainly satisfy YOUR image of the worst in Taiwanese. Its similar to the white American pointing to Louis Farrakhan and cry reverse racism.
From my humble observation here, the white foreigners have it pretty good. The darker-skin foreigners (African, Indian, Thai) and mainland Chinese have much more difficulties (they don’t rant as much 'though).
Having said all that, small minorities of foreigners in Taiwan do perpetrate certain predator stereotypes (soem of it is due to a difference in dating habits/etiquette). People are always more interested in the sensational stuff and pass those onward. This is why some Westerns think ALL Asians eat dogs and cats. Small minorities do eat them, but the rest of us become “dog-eaters” as well. Another example (found on Oriented threads) is the stereotype that white-female getting involved with Taiwanese men (usually gangsters) end up beaten, threatened, or dead.
What can you do (beside rant about Taiwanese being the Most XENOPHOBIC people you’ve seen)?
Its a cliche, but you can change YOUR own mind. Taiwanese are NOT the most Xenophobic. Naive, yes, gullible, maybe. I hope that the Taiwanese stay this way (instead of becoming shrewd like people in HK, just a generalization, no flames plz).p.s. I happen to like “World is Big Different” (“Shi ze da bu tong”) on MUCH TV. At least difference in opinions is “celebrated” on that show.
Please explain this to my sons (aged 9 and 5) who were born here and speak Mandarin, Taiwanese and English. We moved from Hsi-Chih to Tien-Mu because of the adults calling them “monkey” while riding in the elevator going to school. When my wife went to register our oldest, she was told she couldn’t because he’s not Chinese…that next time she “shouldn’t fuck foreigners”. Does this qualify as a “rant”? Please explain. While you were in the US, did your neighbors ever refer to you or your children as a “monkey”? Were you or your wife/girlfriend ever publically insulted by a government officer?
I’ve been taking my family through out SE Asia on vacation every year for the past 10 years…the only places we’ve ever been insulted have been Taiwan and Hong Kong. It’s funny, the Indonesian’s have been the friendliest towards both my Taiwanese wife and my kids. In fact they’ve been friendlier than my wife’s family!
Regarding foreign “predators”…I guess you’ve never seen the Taiwnese tour groups loose in Phnom Penh, Bangkok, Manila or Batam (Indonesia). They go for the under 15 year olds…
Before I came to Taiwan, the only Americans I’d seen (apart from obese tourists in loud print shirts and seersucker bermuda shorts) were the people in Dukes of Hazzard, Baywatch and Jerry Springer.
It took many years of living cheek by jowl with them here before I began to realize that … yes, my perceptions, moulded as they were by the media, were actually pretty accurate.
I used to think Scots wore skirts, played with their pipes, ate sheep stomach, made snide comments, and had bad teeth.
Now I know that only some Scots wear skirts.
HEY! I wear a skirt sometimes!
quote:
Originally quoted by Mai LongDong: Please explain this to my sons (aged 9 and 5) who were born here and speak Mandarin, Taiwanese
I am sorry that these unpleasant incidents happened. However, a small minority of idiots does not make this an island of racists. From my experience, the Chinese have always loved bi-racial kids because they have “such lovely western features”. I hope your explaination to your kids is not that “all Taiwanese are xenophic racist”.
quote[quote]When my wife went to register our oldest, she was told she couldn't because he's not Chinese.....that next time she "shouldn't fuck foreigners". Does this qualify as a "rant"? Please explain.[/quote]Dealing with US INS was not pleasant but not near what you’ve said here. However, the Mexicans and African Americans might disagree with me on their dealings with US law enforcement agents.
I have been told to “get back to your country” (I’m an American citizen). Does this mean that I think all Americans are xenophobic racists? No.
quote[quote]While you were in the US, did your neighbors ?ever refer to you or your children as a "monkey"? Were you or your wife/girlfriend ever publically insulted by a government officer?[/quote]Taiwan is behind US esp in laws/codes toward foreigners. At the same time, Taiwan never gave small pox to Aboriginals to wipe out their population, import slaves in mass, put native and foreign-born citizen in camps (WWI Japanese-Americans), etc. I’ve study the history of Asian American experience which included many, many racist laws very specific in targeting racial groups. Still, I think Taiwanese people could use some of these educations.
quote[quote]I've been taking my family through out SE Asia on vacation every year for the past 10 years....the only places we've ever been insulted have been Taiwan and Hong Kong. [/quote]Hong Kong people insults everyone…including themselves. I’m not sure why you have so much more problems in Taiwan than most foreigners. Personally, I probably would’ve pack up and left.
Your point on Indonesians is an excellent example. While the majority of them are friendly, the hatred amongst the few led to burning, robbing, killing and raping of Chinese-Indonesians (1998?). The enemy is the message of hate. Stop spreading message of hatred.
quote[quote]Regarding foreign "predators"....I guess you've never seen the Taiwnese tour groups loose in Phnom Penh, Bangkok, Manila or Batam (Indonesia). They go for the under 15 year [/quote]So, your point is that all Taiwanese prey on children? If so, your logic/conclusion is as scary as those stereotypes spread by trash TV.
I have been to Bangkok, Phuket, Pattaya, and even Batam (didn’t see any nightlife at Batam). I’ve also seen many Westerns prey on whatever they find. Do I think all western men are sexual predators? No. Do you?
quote:
HEY! I wear a skirt sometimes!
Send pics.
You can download the CTS shows from this web site (all in Chinese). It will cost you (not sure how much). I’m don’t know the name of that TV show either.
quote:
Originally posted by Urbanjet: "I know this is a place for non-Asian foreigners to rant about Taiwan, but I figure I'll bring in a bigger perspective."
Mr. Urbanjet,
First of all, I think that we, “Non-Asian foreigners”, and the Asian-American folks who own and operate this domain, sincerly appreciate your input.
"I’ve lived here for about 19 years and the one thing I’ve found exists is sheer XENOPHOBIA compounded by one of the worst cases of gulliability on earth. Are all Taiwanese like "
I’m guessing that you have some typo/grammar problems here? Yes, I agree that there is a certain “naivete” that results from the homogenity issue
“I’ve lived in the states for about that long and have seen fair share amounts of xenophobic behavior (toward Asians and other minorities) as well ('though Americans are more skeptical than gullible). The smaller the minority population in a particular city, the worst it is. Which is why I like living in large cities.”
You’ve lived in America as a foreign-born “minority”. This is a perspective of America that native borns, can’t even begin to understand - in much the same way as it’s difficult for our Taiwanese friends to really appreciate our experiencce in their society. The thing that disturbs me a tad, is the way you use the word, “american”. You seem to use it the same way that people in Taiwan use the word “wai-gwo ren” to refer to caucasian foreigners, or even more specific, “americans” - I always had the impression, when I lived in Taiwan, that the distinctions between these words were rather unimportant, locally.
“My point is: ignorant people are everywhere especially places where people are not educated.”
Yes.
“How does one get educated? By traveling aboard.”
Wow. I wish that were true. Don’t travel in Europe in the Summer looking for proof of that hypothesis!
“Certainly NOT by local media. All media are bias. Period. Is Taiwanese media worst than you home country? Perhaps in certain aspects, but not in others. Shoud they be the unbias, “enlightened” media like your home country? I hope not.”
???
“The show in question is trash TV similar to Jerry Springers. Are all Americans as weird, stupid, and racist like the trash they put on Jerry Springers? Of course not. So, using the worst of Taiwanese TV to illustrate the attitute Taiwanese have toward foreigners is unfair.”
This is a good point, which I appreciate. None of us should automatically assume that our own initial impressions are represntitive of societal values in general. This is a good reminder, but I have to challange your analogy. Jerry Springer is a perfect example of the worst of “American” TV, but this show is watched by a very small percentage of TV viewers - it’s aired in late morning, not in prime-time, like the show in question, which is a prime time show that my “ex” enjoyed watching with her whole family, and which is not routinely challanged and reviles by the press, as is the Springer Show.
“However, it certainly satisfy YOUR image of the worst in Taiwanese. Its similar to the white American pointing to Louis Farrakhan and cry reverse racism.”
???
“From my humble observation here, the white foreigners have it pretty good. The darker-skin foreigners (African, Indian, Thai) and mainland Chinese have much more difficulties (they don’t rant as much 'though).”
Hard to dispute that there is a tendency, in some situations in Taiwan to both treat and regard “caucasians” preferentially? And, yes, the views of other minorities ARE under-represented - here in this site. Perhaps this is a function of language? My filipina buddy, who was a housekeeper until she got deported, gave me the impression that she and her friends “ranted” about locals easily as much as as any “foreigner” that I have come across…
“Having said all that, small minorities of foreigners in Taiwan do perpetrate certain predator stereotypes (soem of it is due to a difference in dating habits/etiquette). People are always more interested in the sensational stuff and pass those onward.”
Yes.
“This is why some Westerns think ALL Asians eat dogs and cats. Small minorities do eat them, but the rest of us become “dog-eaters” as well.”
???
“Another example (found on Oriented threads) is the stereotype that white-female getting involved with Taiwanese men (usually gangsters) end up beaten, threatened, or dead.”
???
“What can you do (beside rant about Taiwanese being the Most XENOPHOBIC people you’ve seen)?
Its a cliche, but you can change YOUR own mind. Taiwanese are NOT the most Xenophobic. Naive, yes, gullible, maybe. I hope that the Taiwanese stay this way (instead of becoming shrewd like people in HK, just a generalization, no flames plz).”
Again, language barriers aside… ???
“p.s. I happen to like “World is Big Different” (“Shi ze da bu tong”) on MUCH TV. At least difference in opinions is “celebrated” on that show.”
Is that the panel show that I mentioned?
quote:
Originally posted by Urbanjet:I have been to Bangkok, Phuket, Pattaya, and even Batam (didn’t see any nightlife at Batam). I’ve also seen many Westerns prey on whatever they find. Do I think all western men are sexual predators? No. Do you?[/QB]
Well then I suggest you go closer to home…ever see the brothels around Hwa-Hsi St featuring 13-14 year old aborigine girls? Who were the customers??? I didn’t see many “big-noses”.
quote:
Originally posted by Mwalimu: First of all, I think that we, "Non-Asian foreigners", and the Asian-American folks who own and operate this domain, sincerly appreciate your input.
Hm…I might get flamed for saying tihs, but the Asian Americans (like myself),CBC,BBC, etc do not rant as much on this particular web site. Are you offended by me singling out non-Asian foreigners? Should I use “Westerners” instead or just foreigners?
quote[quote]The thing that disturbs me a tad, is the way you use the word, "american". You seem to use it the same way that people in Taiwan use the word "wai-gwo ren" to refer to caucasian foreigners, or [/quote]Actually, I do make the distinction because I
have lived in US as well as Europe, MiddleEast, and other parts of Asia. I generally use “Western” or “Westerners” when refering to non-Asian Foreigners. When I use American, I do mean American. Yes, the locals do not make such a distinction unless they’ve lived abroad.Question: Do you know how to tell Japaneses, Chineses, Koreans apart? You may, but many Westerners refer to all Asians as Chinese (or Japs). Even the more sophisticated non-Asians get Taiwanese and Thai national confused.
So, before you rant, check to see if the reverse practice is true in your country. If it is, its
not exclusive to Taiwanese. What annoys me is when people think that Taiwanese are the only ones on earth capable of committing these insensitivities.quote[quote]I'm guessing that you have some typo/grammar problems here? Yes, I agree that there is a certain "naivete" that results from the homogenity issue[/quote]NA
quote[quote]Well then I suggest you go closer to home....ever see the brothels around Hwa-Hsi St featuring 13-14 year old aborigine girls? Who were the customers??? I didn't see many "big-noses".[/quote]No, I haven’t seen brothels in Taiwan.
YOU SIR HAS A COGNITIVE SKILL THAT I WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND. Is your point that Westerners do not prey on kids? That ALL Taiwanese go for 14-Year old girls? WHAT IS YOUR POINT? How does this relate to the racism that your family encountered in Taiwan? ARE YOU SOBER?
quote:
Originally posted by Urbanjet: NO I HAVEN'T SEEN BROTHELS IN TAIWAN.YOU SIR HAS A COGNITIVE SKILL THAT I WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND. IS YOUR POINT THAT BIG-NOSES DO NOT PREY ON KIDS? THAT ALL TAIWANESE GO FOR 14-YERA OLD GIRLS? WHAT IS YOUR POINT? HOW DOES THIS RELATE TO THE RACISIM YOUR FAMILY ENCOUNTERED IN TAIWAN? ARE YOU SOBER?[/QB]
Yes, quite sober…more than you are apparently. What’s the matter, Chinatown back in the States get to rough for you? Don’t worry, now that you’ve got your US passport, you can run back if it gets too rough here. :^)
You may or may not conform to the pattern of your society. But when people generalise, don’t take it all so personal. What’s important is that you try to overcome ignorance yourself, and it seems that many folks on this forum are open minded and aspiring to a higher state of tolerance and acceptance. I know Americans have got some fucked-up tendencies. But America is easily the most ethnically integrated large country in the world. Oh, that doesn’t mean we don’t have serious race issues. But the minorities in the US DO have a stronger voice than in any other large country in government, politics and society in general.
The thing you people must realize is that most large countries don’t experience as widespread and intense a mingling of races as in America. It’s easy to say “we do this” or “we do that”. But I’d like to see what a democratic Taiwan were like should one day foreigners make up more than 30% of the population. Things wouldn’t be so “innocent and good-natured” (as if things were that way now).
Urbanjet, don’t talk to us about manual labor and shit, as if other foreigners don’t have a reason to feel mistreated or prejudiced against. Some of us have families here, and are legitimately trying to make a life for them. Maybe it is YOU that has never had to deal with making a PERMANENT life for yourself and your family in a place that sometimes seems a losing battle (though the improvement of some human rights conditions is acknowledged and appreciated).
quote[quote]Maybe it is YOU that has never had to deal with making a PERMANENT life for yourself and your family in a place that sometimes seems a losing battle.[/quote]So, what you’re saying is that my family’s immigration experience has taught me nothing because I had it too easy in the states? I assure you that it wasn’t that easy. However, I do not think of Americans any less because of it.
We are getting way off the original topic.
quote[quote]Originally posted by Mai Longdong:What's the matter, Chinatown back in the States get to rough for you? Don't worry, now that you've got your US passport, you can run back if it gets too rough here. :^)[/quote]So all Asians live in Chinatown back in the States? Your stereotype is as scary as some of rednecks I’ve met. I’m starting to understand why you’re being treated so badly in Taiwan.