Two foreigners caught out on TV

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
41

I don’t mean to be flaming the fans or anything here, but Urbanjet pointed this out…

BTW, I ALSO APPRECIATE YOUR CALM AND RATIONAL DISCUSSION ON THE SUBJECT. JUST PISS ME OFF WHEN PEOPLE USE THE WORST OF A FEW AND GENERALIZE IT AS BEING TRUE FOR THE REST OF THE POPULATION.

Yes, calm and rational are good, and are sometimes severely lacking in these discussions.

However you make a point that I must not disagree with per se, but rather make a counter-point on. Living in Taiwan, I’ve come to my own opinion that your -average- Taiwanese is much less… ‘aware’ of issues such as racial sensitivity and respect than your -average- Westerner (by the way, using ‘big nose’ in any argument detracts from your credibility). I’ll give an example to explain my point, as I’m not sure how to otherwise do it effectively…
Yes, we have crap TV in the US - Jerry Springer is one good example. 5% of Americans love it, the other 95% absolutely detest it. I think its that majority that’s important - you’re going to get dumbasses in every country… its what the majority think that affects a society on a larger basis. Those 95% that detest it make me feel much better about that show even existing, and about society over there as a whole.
Another example… if you tell a story of a racist incident which happened in the states (any incident), 5% of Americans will think ‘that’s not really racist’ or ‘whatever’, while 95% will be absolutely enraged. (Again, these are not exact percentages, and I’m talking about large cities on the East and West Coast…)

However, in my experience in Taiwan, I feel that if I tell someone of any racist incident (whether or not it was perpetrated by a Taiwanese or not), maybe 15% will think its a horrible thing, and 85% will think it wasn’t really racism, or just plain think, ‘whatever.’
Those crap TV shows? I feel that very few Taiwanese think they are ‘crap TV shows,’ even fewer will think they are dragging down society (like many in the US think of Jerry Springer).

Two other minor points. I have known MANY ABC friends who have traveled to Taiwan, and most complained much more than most people on this site do, much more than I ever have at least.
The second is that, yes, ignorance and racism does occur in America, especially as you go to the smaller cities and to the central/southern areas (no offense from people in those areas – if you keep up with a website about any foreign country like this, then I think you’re already disqualified from being one of those I’m indicating). Does that mean that if I was a foreigner, or an American, living in that area and dealing with racism often in my daily life, I shouldn’t be complaining about it? Hell, I lived in Missouri for two years when I was 14 and I’m STILL bitching about the racism there! (and rightly should be)

These are some generalizations, but I hope you understand my points.

42
quote:
Originally posted by Urbanjet: I'm starting to understand why you're being treated so badly in Taiwan.[/QB]

Hey, I’ve been fine…read it again! My TAIWANESE wife and kids have had the problems. Understand???

43
quote:
Originally posted by Urbanjet: However, I do not think of Americans any less because of it. [/QB]

That’s mighty white of you.

44

don’t talk to us about manual labor and shit, as >if other foreigners don’t have a reason to feel >mistreated or prejudiced against.

If you are mistreated or prejuidiced against, I want to read about it. But, that’s not what I’m reading here.

So far, we talked about mis-represetation of foreign men on television show, the murder and killing and cover-up by authorities. Which someone led to the conclusion that Taiwanese are xenophobic and racist.

45

I think this was where the topic took a different direction:

My GF told me there are some very disturbing stories about “foreigners” circulating. One was of a recent 7 on 1 gangbang of a girl with a head full of E at a KTV. Apparently she went to the ------------------------

Apparently, Taiwanese media spread false rumors while they cover up mysterious death of foreigners. Is this the complaint??

46

(by the way, using ‘big nose’ in any argument detracts from your credibility).

Mai Longdong brought out big nose. I used it only to further discuss his point.

47
quote:
So, what you're saying is that my family's immigration experience has taught me nothing because I had it too easy in the states? I assure you that it wasn't that easy. However, I do not think of Americans any less because of it.

No, I’m saying that you don’t really know because you haven’t had to live in those shoes. Your parents no doubt had to deal with a lot more shit than Asian-Americans today have to deal with. You may have learned something from their experience, but you won’t ever fully understand something you haven’t experienced yourself. At least America is slowly beginning to move beyond it’s ignorance, as far as racial and cultural issues. Doesn’t mean we don’t have a long way to go, but the vast majority of Americans want things to improve, and empathize with minorities.

This is not the case in Taiwan. Thankfully, there are legislative initiatives to advance the rights of foreigners, thanks primarily to certain underappreciated members of the foreign community. But the public ingnorance is something in which no interest exists to move beyond. I’m not blaming anyone. I’m simply pointing out the fact that Taiwan obviously lacks the multi-cultural experience of America. Thus, how can you even compare the two countries?

quote:
We are getting way off the original topic.

Wasn’t my damn fault, mister. I’m just responding to some dumb-ass drivel.

48

I cannot but help think that too many people seem to be making the wrong comparison which is between Taiwan in 2002 and some sophisticated Western metropolis.
Frankly, in terms of development Taiwan is simply not there yet, even Taipei. In terms of attitudes and cultural development Taiwan often seems to me to be stuck in the early 1960s, which isn’t so surprising given its history and development level.
As someone who can – just – remember the early 60s I have to say that in terms of cultural sensitivity they were the pits and we have come a hell of a long way. Hell, ethnic and cultural stereotyping were a mainstay of British TV comedy well into the 1970s. Taiwan’s a pretty homogenous society, not really used to non-Asian outsiders. What would be a fair comparison? Probably any European major city is more cosmopolitan than Taipei, some of them – London, Paris, vastly more so. But look at the racial problems both those places still have. And that is even while the degree of day-to-day civility towards ethnic “others” has increased hugely.
Can I just point out that the movie “Guess who’s coming to dinner” was released in 1967, its premise: Shock, horror, a white girl wants to marry Sidney Poitier. How will a liberal father cope?
So my point is, look at the journey Taiwan society has made in the past 50 years and don’t expect it to have exactly caught up with the one that the West made in the past 200 or so.

49

Bravo, Mr Sanders.

A very good point I often remind others (and myself!!) whenever I can. Yes, Taiwan has many problems (as does anywhere), but even looking at the changes (mostly improvements, some not) in the society over just the last 10 years, it has certainly come a very long way in a short period of time.

That’s what I tell myself at least to stay optimistic.

50
quote:
These are some generalizations, but I hope you understand my points.

I understand you points. Thank you for the thoughtfully constructed arguments.

You have a right to complaint, but PLEASE don’t take on a attitude like " Mai Longdong " (full of hatred, anger and vengeful). It will not win you any sympathies. It will only feed to the cycle of racism that exist.

51
quote:
That's mighty white of you.

Such a virtue is not exclusive to members of white race, so please refrain from the racial assults.

52
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So my point is, look at the journey Taiwan society has made in the past 50 years and don't expect it to have exactly caught up with the one that the West made in the past 200 or so.

Mr Sanders, you are a man of wisdom and perspective. Thank you for puting the situation in a temporal context.

quote:
"Against stupidity the gods themselves struggle in vain."
53
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Hey, I've been fine....read it again! My TAIWANESE wife and kids have had the problems. Understand???

I beg to differ, you and your ultra righteous, condescending attitude IS part of the problem.

54
quote:
Originally posted by Urbanjet:

Such a virtue is not exclusive to members of white race, so please refrain from the racial assults.

It’s not a racial “assault” (do you mean “insult”?). It’s a common American expression. You ever come across the terms “irony” or “ironic” or “sarcasm”?

55
quote:
It's not a racial "assault" (do you mean "insult"?). It's a common American expression. You ever come across the terms "irony" or "ironic" or "sarcasm"?

I do mean “assault” as in verbal assault.

quote:
as
56

Quite so. I think it’s important to add, however, that the changes don’t necessarily come all by themselves. The passing of years and increased exposure to “others” is no guarantee of lessened xenophobia/racism. Racism in the United States, for example, didn’t slowly disappear of itself as whites came to be around blacks more and more. It took more than exposure and time. For one, some people had to confront the media (from within and without) about its feeding of racist stereotypes.

Are there regular “positive” examples of foreigners on Taiwan TV? (I’m not being rhetorical. I rarely watch TV, other than the movie channels.)

57
quote:
Are there regular "positive" examples of foreigners on Taiwan TV? (I'm not being rhetorical. I rarely watch TV, other than the movie channels.)

I don’t think there are much foreigners on regular Taiwanese TV. But then again, I only watch News or the Music stations.

We have a similar complain back in the states of the negative portrayals of Asians (especially AA male) on TV or in movies. It started with the sinister Fu Man Chu and the dragon ladies. Now, We’re portrayed either as Chinatown gangsters (partially HK movie industry’s fault) or asexual nerds. As a reaction(against nerd image), some AA male was pulled toward the gangster extreme.

Asian females have a better time at finding good roles. However, you will almost never see an Asian couple. It’s always an Asian female with a non-Asian male. It’s goes back to the asexual stereotype.

58
quote:
Originally posted by Urbanjet: I beg to differ, you and your ultra righteous, condescending attitude IS part of the problem.
Not to get in the middle of what seems to be a good squawk, but UJ, I think you and MLD are talking past each other. Longdong ([i]xiang de mei![/i]) is saying that his attitude is irrelevant to his wife's situation, while you "beg to differ".
quote[quote]Originally posted by Mai Longdong:When my wife went to register our oldest, she was told she couldn't because he's not Chinese.....that next time she "shouldn't fuck foreigners".[/quote]I would argue that MLD's "ultra righteous, condescending attitude" probably has no bearing on how other people interact with his wife in his absence. I appreciate the need to score points off each other, but you guys can do better than this. [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]
59

Just on that gang bang rape thing mentioned earlier uo in this thread. I was talking with a local friend of mine about ‘foreigners in Taiwan’ and he mentioned this occurence of western men gang raping Taiwanese women. He said that out at a bar a group of western males would group together, and the best looking guy would would be the one to pick up a woman, she would go back to his apartment, and then she would be shared amoungst all the guys (and of course she is unaware that this is going to happen).

The first reason I have to doubt the authenticity of this story is, I don’t believe I have seen a good looking foreign male in this city, and reason number two, why would the ugly guys need need a ‘recruiter’ when there is enough trash to go round for everyone who wants it at Roxy Vibe, both local and foreign.

I am not denying that women are raped, it happens in all countries, all cultures. But this story that my friend was so convinced was true he heard about in ‘numerous’ emails recieved from 'numerous’friends. The number of emails which my friend emphasized added weight to his belief. I tried to suggest to him that perhaps not everything in mass mailed emails is true, and perhaps it is not the best source for reliable information. He would not have a bar of me suggesting that perhaps it was not true, his response was 'I don’t want to fight about this’like drop the subject now, I am not going to be convinced that perhaps it is not true.

I’ve been friends with this guy a while now, he studied for a semester in New York. What I gather from this is that even the most seemingly rational people are affected by the portrayals of westerners in the media in Taiwan. They might know that the programmes are trash, and therefor say they just watch it for fun. But like other people have mentoned in this thread, some of the Chinese friends some of us ‘foreigners’ have, consider us the exceptions, and still maintain an overall opinion that most foreigners are like those portrayed on those trashy shows.

Just another aside, has anybody here on Oriented personally known that guy ‘Jeff the foreigner’ who did the text books and translated the English in South Park on Channel ‘V’ amoungst other things. Or has anyone met him? I just don’t know what to make of him, and I find it disturbing that people like him who would so obviously not have made it to fame at home, manage to do so much here. So I would be interested to hear some stories or gossip about him. Also, if anybody here personally knows him, can they suggest to him that next time he is in the West, that he sees a hairdresser trained in cutting western hair. It is like he wants the same hairstyle as a male Chinese pop singer, but he isn’t Chinese, and it really doesn’t work. He really needs a good stylist. I am kind of intrigued and repulsed whenever I see him on TV.

60

Well rape isn’t about getting some. Its a dominance thing. Sounds more like a military thing that would happen in Korea. Although there are lots of sex tourists in Taiwan. I saw this disturbing webpage, “stickmans” or something, basicly a gathering point for world sex travelers. Many people asking about age of consent (grr). A lot of the stereotypes and rumors are based competely on truth. So I don’t know, this probably does happen sometimes. It pisses me off that people would travel halfway around the world to use some other country as a cum catcher. Even the ones that behave more consideratly often times end up hurting feelings and creating cultural tensions because they ignore the differences in culture. I’ve so often heard expats online brag about tricking foreign women into thinking they are looking for a relationship, etc, when all they do is screw them once and leave. And these expats aren’t ashamed of it at all. Personally, I don’t blame the Taiwanese for their portrayal of us. Once it stops being the truth, then it will be something to get worked up about.