US Army admits killing TV cameraman

Politics International Politics
41

So I guess you’re saying you haven’t been in the military, you have no intentions of joining and basically you know jackshit about the subject. Why am I not surprised? :unamused:[/quote]

Well, what I was saying was that Sheepshagger had a point and that you proved it with your Jerry Springer guest-like answer, and then that your response reminded me of those people who, when they are at a loss for an answer, try to discount other people by saying “you just don’t know”, and then roll their eyes, and so on, but now I guess I’d also say that you aren’t very good at reading or you wouldn’t ask me yet again what I am saying. You are very sensitive, aren’t you? That skull with a cigarette is just a front.

42

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]Richardm:

And a global one at that!

HG[/quote]

is it possible to find out if this guy was in his journalist clothes what i assume is a helmet and jacket. i mean, was this guy dressed in a way that one could reasonably ascertain, even in a “firefight moment”, that this is a neutral and not some “enemy combatant” or “non-combatant” as the US would like to say.

43

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]I did question the “culture” of the US military elsewhere. My take is that if you have the shit to throw around then you will. The US military seems to apply the theory that ‘there’s loads more where that came from so toss as much as you like and hopefully we’ll lessen our own casualities.’ This seems to have been the overwhelming tactic of WWII, for example and has lived on into Korea, Vietnam and now Iraq.

It’s a pure numbers game. Got the money, got the people, got the gear then use it. It does seem to come at an awful cost though. . sadly to civilians, allies and their own troops.

HG[/quote]

The British culture of war has been to throw lots of bodies into massed machine gun positions and let the corpses pile up. I guess you never heard of the Battle of the Somme (58,000 British casualties on the first day), Gallipoli or Goose Green. Maybe it’s because of “class” or maybe it’s also easy get rid of those stupid colonials. Americans try to be alittle bit smarter than that.

stemnet.nf.ca/beaumont/somme.htm
anzacsite.gov.au/

44

Isn’t it related to the job? If you’re not there first, if you don’t have the up-close footage, and someone else does, then you’ve been beaten. I’m not saying that this makes journalists always wade into danger, but it’s a factor. I mean, this guy is not the only one killed in Iraq. If you look at the per capita deaths for journalists and for “coalition” troops, I think the rate for journalists would be higher.

45

Isn’t it related to the job? If you’re not there first, if you don’t have the up-close footage, and someone else does, then you’ve been beaten. I’m not saying that this makes journalists always wade into danger, but it’s a factor. I mean, this guy is not the only one killed in Iraq. If you look at the per capita deaths for journalists and for “coalition” troops, I think the rate for journalists would be higher.[/quote]

Read Don McCullen’s Unreasonable Behaviour: An Autobiography. One of the best photographers to ever live. I’ve read it at least half a dozen times. Spooky stuff.

hamiltonsgallery.com/photogr … ullin.html


Shellshocked Marine

46

Technology?? The Brits refuse to wear helmets or use body armor. They think berets are much more macho or something. A brain bucket is pretty basic technology…

Maybe. But wearing berets is much more culturally sensitive and MUCH LESS confrontational than standing full combat gear at the traffic lights in Baghdad. Perhaps if the US Army were to dress down the Iragis would feel less intimidated by these gung-ho kids with big guns. It is this overt show of military and cultural might on the part of the US that leads to this ill-will towards the United States. Perhaps a little more understanding and a bit more education of US troops and a lot of the tension could be diffused. Yes, not wearing a helmet is more risky but it could very well lead to a better respect for the occupying forces and a lessening of tension. The Americans are sooooo paranoid and shit scared of losing soldiers that they inevitably make things worse for themselves through overkill (sic.)

Can someone help me with this white quotation boxes please, I am new at this and crap with computers. Thanks.

47

Read Requiem: By the Photographers Who Died in Vietnam and Indochina. Excellent.

48

I like Dispatches, by Michael Herr, which to me showed how easy it is to get sucked into the environment you are covering.

culturevulture.net/Books2/Dispatches.htm

49

Have you ever had to wipe your buddy’s brains off your face? Please tell us about being shit scared. I’m interested in knowing where you experienced such an emotion. :unamused:

50

One of the best books on Vietnam. That plus Tim Page’s photos, the Doors and some good dope.

51

This reminds me of Northern Ireland in the eighties.

Can someone explain to me what the difference is between a British soldier shooting passengers in a car who refuse to stop at a checkpoint in N. Ireland, and US troops shooting a cameraman in Iraq ?

Are we allowed to criticise the US for this action in the way the USA continually criticised Britain for its actions in N. Ireland, or is the USA immune from criticism ?

Blueface, I know you have served in the army. Is it not terrifying to be amongst a civilian population not knowing where the threat is coming from ? Wasn’t that the situation in Vietnam ?

I remember being stopped with my parents at an almost invisible army checkpoint in N. Ireland at night. We never saw the checkpoint. The Sargeant said to my Dad: “Don’t you realise I have ordered my men to make ready ?” Everyone was scared - I looked into the face of a young soldier in the long acre at the side of the road, and he was as scared as I was that he might have to fire upon what appeared to be a family car. The whole situation was bizzare, he was pointing a Stirling sub-machine gun mounted on a tripod at a family car on a normal road. I simply couldn’t believe the possibility existed that they might have shot us, but it had happened before in Belfast with joyriders who refused to stop. On a dimly lit Fermanagh road we could have been (but statistically unlikely) running guns up from Monaghan, and have been armed to the teeth. I’m sure that’s what they were thinking. Those checkpoints were horrible. For the soldiers as well, I suspect. (I dunno, maybe they enjoyed it ?)

[For those who have never seen an night-time army checkpoint in rural N.I., it consists of a soldier in full camoflague standing in the middle of the road waving a tiny red torch. Blink and you miss it. All along the sides of the road are soldiers in the bushes.]

I would not like to have been that US soldier firing upon what appeared to be a man with a camera. Would any of us really take the chance given what has happened to date ? I don’t know, but I’m pretty sure those soldiers are spending every moment of their days in acute fear. I think if I had been that soldier, God help me, I’d have shot the cameraman too. The BBC report is a bit over-dramatic.

I must say, I don’t like this attitude that when the Americans kill civilians it’s OK, but whenever anyone else does it’s not. It is a very worrying argument, and makes me hope and pray the Americans never go to war anywhere near me. Wouldn’t it simply be better to apologise profusely, point out there’s a war going on, and promise to try better next time ? No-one could say that was an unreasonable response.

52

[quote=“sheepshagger”]Technology?? The Brits refuse to wear helmets or use body armor. They think berets are much more macho or something. A brain bucket is pretty basic technology…

Maybe. But wearing berets is much more culturally sensitive and MUCH LESS confrontational than standing full combat gear at the traffic lights in Baghdad. Perhaps if the US Army were to dress down the Iragis would feel less intimidated by these gung-ho kids with big guns. It is this overt show of military and cultural might on the part of the US that leads to this ill-will towards the United States. Perhaps a little more understanding and a bit more education of US troops and a lot of the tension could be diffused. Yes, not wearing a helmet is more risky but it could very well lead to a better respect for the occupying forces and a lessening of tension. The Americans are sooooo paranoid and shit scared of losing soldiers that they inevitably make things worse for themselves through overkill (sic.)[/quote]

This gets my vote for “silly post of the day”.

Listen folks, this stuff is all very simple…mistakes happen in combat. For as long as people have been fighting, there have been fuck-ups in combat. People being in the wrong place at the wrong time, people shooting at the wrong targets, blah, blah, blah. Usually it is just bad luck, but other facters can be involved (fatique, visibility, nerves, etc.). Too many examples in history (though Stonewall Jackson being shot by soldiers of a South Carolinan regiment on that dark Virginian lane is a great example) Don’t even try placing blame or finding fault with what happened…it just happened. It has happened before and it will happen again.

53

Dear Mr Blue in the Face with rage,

I cannot compete with your obvious military experience nor can I adequately respond to your aggressive tone. Instead of blindly defending the US regardless of others’ opinions and doing it spitting venom, why don’t you reflect on the rights of others’ to have opinions and express them freely. Methinks that if you were in a real position of power you would shut down the press, isue everyone with a gun and play ‘my buddy’s-brains-all-over-my-face-argue-with-that-motherfucker one-upmanship’. So you may have fought in a war? So what? It doesn’t give you total omniscience on the subject nor give you the right to dismiss the opinions of others. And yes I have seen people shot but it was from a hundred yards away and the brain spatter missed.

54

[quote=“hexuan”]
Blueface, I know you have served in the army. Is it not terrifying to be amongst a civilian population not knowing where the threat is coming from ? Wasn’t that the situation in Vietnam ?[/quote]

Exactly. Thank you.

55

[quote=“sheepshagger”]Dear Mr Blue in the Face with rage,

I cannot compete with your obvious military experience nor can I adequately respond to your aggressive tone. Instead of blindly defending the US regardless of others’ opinions and doing it spitting venom, why don’t you reflect on the rights of others’ to have opinions and express them freely. Methinks that if you were in a real position of power you would shut down the press, isue everyone with a gun and play ‘my buddy’s-brains-all-over-my-face-argue-with-that-pleasant young person one-upmanship’. So you may have fought in a war? So what? It doesn’t give you total omniscience on the subject nor give you the right to dismiss the opinions of others. And yes I have seen people shot but it was from a hundred yards away and the brain spatter missed.[/quote]

And equally as persuasive as the argument that unless you have been there and done that, you have no right to speak, is the one that says that because you have been there and done that (and especially when we’re talking about something as traumatic as brain splatter) that you have no objectivity I’m not saying one or the other is better, just that both attitudes divert discussion.

56

Philip Jones Griffiths was the first photographer to document in print a book on Vietnam: Vietnam, Inc. Very cool guy. Great photographer.

magnumphotos.com/c/htm/TreeP … 9YL53IRGC5

Here’s a shot I did of him a couple of years ago while we were both getting drunk in Bali. :laughing: Note his Khmer scarf.

57

[quote=“Durins Bane”]This gets my vote for “silly post of the day”.

Listen folks, this stuff is all very simple…mistakes happen in combat. For as long as people have been fighting, there have been fuck-ups in combat. People being in the wrong place at the wrong time, people shooting at the wrong targets, blah, blah, blah. Usually it is just bad luck, but other facters can be involved (fatique, visibility, nerves, etc.). Too many examples in history (though Stonewall Jackson being shot by soldiers of a South Carolinan regiment on that dark Virginian lane is a great example) Don’t even try placing blame or finding fault with what happened…it just happened. It has happened before and it will happen again.[/quote]

And yours gets the “Vapid Post of the Day.” Of course, mistakes happen. The point is to figure how to minimize the likelihood of them happening. Policies toward journalists can be changed, access increased / reduced, etc., so the death of that journalist was not inevitable.

58

Blueface,

You’ve implied dozens of times that you’ve seen combat, but you’ve never actually stated that explicitly. Just curious, have you ever been involved in combat? Where? Thanks for clearing up this ambiguity.

Oh, and by the way, I agree with you about Requiem. Great book.

59

[quote=“sheepshagger”]Dear Mr Blue in the Face with rage,

I cannot compete with your obvious military experience nor can I adequately respond to your aggressive tone. Instead of blindly defending the US regardless of others’ opinions and doing it spitting venom, why don’t you reflect on the rights of others’ to have opinions and express them freely. Methinks that if you were in a real position of power you would shut down the press, isue everyone with a gun and play ‘my buddy’s-brains-all-over-my-face-argue-with-that-pleasant young person one-upmanship’. So you may have fought in a war? So what? It doesn’t give you total omniscience on the subject nor give you the right to dismiss the opinions of others. And yes I have seen people shot but it was from a hundred yards away and the brain spatter missed.[/quote]

Wear a helmet or don’t, it’s up to you. At least I won’t have to write a letter to Mrs. Sheepshagger explaining how her son got his brains blown out because he was sensitive and thought a beret was less threatening. And not to worry, he wasn’t shit scared like those silly Americans with their Kevlar helmets. :laughing: I’m sure she’ll be relieved you died with your beret firmly on.

60

[quote=“Mother Theresa”]You’ve implied dozens of times that you’ve seen combat, but you’ve never actually stated that explicitly. Just curious, have you ever been involved in combat? Where? Thanks for clearing up this ambiguity.

Oh, and by the way, I agree with you about Requiem. Great book.[/quote]

Vietnam. My girlfriend dropped me, I got drunk, dropped out of college and joined up. My parents were not pleased. :laughing: