US - Israeli Relationship

[quote=“Zhonguoman”]for the sake of being controversial…
I don’t believe in any of that “jewish conspiracy” bullshit, and I think its definately both incorrect and offensive to say the American media is “controlled by jews”…however America’s stance on israel is highly unusual in its contrast to most countries anti-zionist stances (especially European ones)…Israel makes up over a third of US foreign aid, and its not even a third world country! why is that?[/quote]
Money. The Jewish lobby is one of the most well-financed of all of them. They pay Congressmen and Senators, and in turn get yet more back in taxpayers’ funds. You gotta spend money to make money.

A few of the Congressmen and Senators are from heavily Jewish districts (many are themselves Jewish) and so have personal interest in sponsoring aid packages and votes that benefit Israel. Their constituents base their votes in part on these issues. These members of Congress lead the effort.

Finally, U.S. “evangelical Christians” have a rather schizophrenic pro-Israel belief – apparently there is some sort of prophecy in the Bible that Israel will be rebuilt and then destroyed, and that a third of the Jews will convert to Christianity and the rest will die, and then Armageddon will happen and the true Christians can all go float around on clouds and strum harps and sing hosannas to His Name for all eternity. So in order to further Biblical prophecy, they are pro-Israel. It’s a hell of a thing when the people who are shipping you money are doing it with the hope that 67% of you will get killed. :fume:

My Chinese teacher insists that America supports Israel becasue the US Congress is 80% Jewish. I argued with her, but I certainly didn’t convince her she was wrong. (By the way, I checked afterwards - it’s 7% Jewish.) Jewish lobbying plays a role, of course, but the fact that Israel is the only democracy in the area also plays a role.

Its odd indeed. Those intent on finding some other reasons for the US support of Israel never seem able to see any significance in the following two facts:

  1. Israel is one of the only democracies in the area; and

  2. A primary US foriegn policy goal is the spread of democracy and the encouragement of democracies.

It’s too simple a theory Tigerman, no wonder it never caught on. :wink:

I think its not a matter of it being a “democracy” but having some degree of stability…the US backed the shah in Iran which sure a hell wasnt a democracy, they have relatively good relations with turkey and saudi arabia (the governments not the people) although those countries both have loads of human rights issues. Kuwait is not a democracy, also quite tight with the US.

Since when?? Sept. 12th 2001?

Of course not. It has been an aspect of US foreign policy since the birth of our nation… but has become increasingly more primary a concern after WWI. See the article below:

[quote]The American promotion of democracy abroad, particularly as it has been pursued since the end of World War II, reflects a pragmatic, evolving, and sophisticated understanding of how to create a stable and relatively peaceful world order. It amounts to what might be called an American “liberal” grand strategy. It is a strategy based on the very realistic view that the political character of other states has an enormous impact on the ability of the United States to ensure its security and economic interests. It is also an orientation that unites factions of the Left and the Right in American politics. Conservatives point to Ronald Reagan as the great Cold War champion of the free world, democracy, and self-determination - but rarely recognize him as the great Wilsonian of our age. Liberals emphasize the role of human rights, multilateral institutions, and the progressive political effects of economic interdependence. These positions are parts of a whole. Although “realist” critics and others complain about drift and confusion in U.S. foreign policy, it actually has a great deal of coherence.

The American preoccupation with promoting democracy abroad fits into a larger liberal view about the sources of a stable, legitimate, secure, and prosperous international order. This outlook may not always be the chief guiding principle of policy, and it may sometimes lead to error. Still, it is a relatively coherent orientation rooted in the American political experience and American understandings of history, economics, and the sources of political stability. It thus stands apart from more traditional grand strategies that grow out of European experience and the so-called realist tradition in foreign policy, with its emphasis on balances of power, realpolitik, and containment.

This distinctively American liberal grand strategy is built around a set of claims and assumptions about how democratic politics, economic interdependence, international institutions, and political identity encourage a stable political order. It is not a single view articulated by a single group of thinkers. It is a composite view built on a variety of arguments by a variety of supporters. Some advocate promoting democratic institutions abroad, some lobby for free trade and economic liberalization, and others aim to erect ambitious new international and regional economic and security institutions. Each group has its own emphases and agendas, each may think of itself as entirely independent of the others (and occasionally even hostile to them), but over the years they have almost inadvertently complemented one another. Together, these efforts have come to constitute a liberal grand strategy.

It has, however, been a largely hidden strategy. After President Wilson’s spectacular failure to create world order through the League of Nations after World War I, liberal internationalism was badly discredited. And the charge that Wilson and his followers were sentimental idealists was not unjustified. “In the conduct of foreign affairs,” writes Wilson biographer Arthur S. Link, Wilson’s “idealism meant for him the subordination of immediate goals and material interests to superior ethical standards and the exaltation of moral and spiritual purposes.” But Wilson overshadowed the more general liberal internationalist tradition that began to flourish in America and Britain at the turn of the century and that was chiefly concerned with the rising complexities of modern society, the savageness of war, and the need for more systematic forms of international cooperation.

No matter. It was easy to conclude that the liberal doctrine had failed, and in fact a great and single statement of that doctrine was never produced. But in the shadows it remained a strong presence in the practical work of American officials, especially as they sought in the first few years after World War II to reconstruct Europe and open the postwar world economy. This presence was felt not only in the creation of the United Nations, but in the launching of other international institutions, such as the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, and the apparatus of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, all designed to secure what President Harry S. Truman called “economic peace.” American officials laid the foundation of a liberal democratic order on principles of economic openness, political reciprocity, and the management of conflicts in new multinational institutions.

The realities of the Cold War soon overpowered the thinking of American officials, however, and after 1947 the doctrine of containment - with its rousing urgency and clarity of purpose - soon east liberal internationalism into shadow again. But the principles and practices of Western order came earlier and survived longer. Today, in the aftermath of the Cold War, the five chief elements of liberal grand strategy are again re-emerging in a clearer light.

The Amity of Democracies: Woodrow Wilson was probably the purest believer in the proposition that democracies maintain more peaceful relations, and his great optimism about the prospects for democracy around the globe after World War I accounts for his exaggerated hopes for world peace. “A steadfast concert of peace can never be maintained except by a partnership of democratic nations. No autocratic government could be trusted to keep faith within it or observe its covenants,” he declared in 1917.

Wilson’s claim was only the most emphatic statement of a long tradition in American diplomacy holding that the United States will be able to trust and get along best with democracies. This was the view, for example, that largely inspired the U.S. effort to remake Japan and Germany along more democratic lines after World War II. In the minds of the era’s American leaders, including President Truman, the fundamental cause of both world wars was the rise of illiberal, autocratic states.

[color=blue]Read further at:[/color] mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/exdem.htm
[/quote]

The fact that the US supports some non-democratic countries does not mean that democracy is irrelevant to it. I am well aware that Kuwait is not a democracy; however, I have always found it hard to believe that if Kuwaitis could vote they would prefer to be absorbed by (the also non-democratic) Iraq.
One of the goals of the US (and of Canada, and of all the Western developed democracies) is to extend democracy and good goverance in the world. They are not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts, in most cases, but because it’s good for business. We should remember, however, that it’s also good for people in the non-democratic, poorly-governed countries. One example: Who is better off, the people starving to death in the communist police-state of North Korea, or the people in admittedly corrupt but democratic and capitalistic South Korea? Which one do you honestly think the US should support? Which one does the US in fact support?
Israel is the only democracy in the area. The US should support it; not blindly support it, but basically be on its side.

From today’s Jakarta Post:

Australians will be ‘hit’ due to government’s U.S. alliance: Ba’asyir

SYDNEY, Australia (AP): Indonesian militant cleric Abu Bakar Ba’asyir warned that Australians will be “hit” because of their government’s alliance with Washington, a newspaper reported on Saturday.

Enraged at Australia’s attempts to keep him behind bars, the alleged spiritual leader of regional terror group Jamaah Islamiyah said Muslims would rise against Australia and the United States after they lobbied Indonesian authorities not to release him as scheduled next month.

“Be careful about that,” said Ba’asyir, according to The Weekend Australian.

[b]Speaking from his jail cell, Ba’asyir also warned Australians to be wary of Canberra’s alliance with the United States.

“That’s a government controlled by Jews,” he said. “The Australian people will be hit as a result of that.”[/b]

Australia’s strong support of Washington’s policies in the war on terror has drawn sharp criticism in the region. U.S. President George W. Bush last year called Australia its “sheriff,” causing even more ire amongSouth Asian leaders and the public.

Ba’asyir is currently serving time for immigration violations, and is set to be released from an Indonesian prison on April 30, according to his lawyers.

Australia has called for Indonesian authorities to try to keep him in jail, worried that his release will only incite further violence.

Ba’asyir was detained shortly after the October 2002 Bali bombings, but was not charged in the attack that killed 202 people, including 88 Australians.

The 65-year-old cleric was also not charged for a suicide bombing last year at the J.W. Marriott Hotel in Jakarta that killed 12 people.

Indonesian police are currently scouring interrogation transcripts of Jamaah Islamiyah operations chief Hambali, currently in U.S. custody, to see if there is any evidence that can be used to prosecute Ba’asyir.

It remains unclear, however, if the transcripts could be used in court, or if Indonesian prosecutors would attempt to extend Ba’asyir’s jail term based on any new information.

Somebody needs to explain to me how you can be a bona fide democracy and still have 3.5 million voteless, stateless people caged in a ghetto completely under your control because I don’t get it.

The U.S. supports Israel because U.S. Jews use their money and control of the media (and yes, they do–go check who publishes or broadcasts YOUR favorite propaganda) to manipulate domestic politics in this direction. Now why would anyone (except Jews of course) consider it wrong to say such things?

It’s a classic “free rider” problem–a few percentage points of the population feel strongly about something, while the rest don’t care, and don’t protest when the minority diverts their tax money in the direction of their co-ethnics. The solution is to wake up the majority as to what the Jews are doing to them. A lot of people are afraid to speak out, because the aforementioned Jewish-dominated media has brainwashed them into thinking their suspicions are wicked. (Maybe the truth IS wicked.)

Israel is a “democracy” only for Jews. In fact, as Muslims have long insisted, Israel has much in common with Hitler’s Germany. It is useless for any practical U.S. objective, since our support of it basically guarantees that all the Muslims will continue to be pissed off at us into the foreseeable future.

the reason the us supports israel is because conservative christians have a strong affinity to protect israel against the muslim nations. even those who don’t care so much on a religious level consider most of the middle eastern states enemies and so would be loath to not give israel support.

people who partake in jewish conspiracies have no clue about the composition of american jews. they highlight their own ignorance by ignoring the fact that jews almost always vote for democrats…who happen to be much less israel-friendly. what percent of the jewish vote did bush win in 2000? anyone? anyone? buller?

the head of the nytimes is a jew? oh, i guess that’s why the nytimes is one of the most anti-israel, pro-palestinian papers in the country. :unamused:

your list is woefully out of date:

gerald levin is not longer the ceo of aol time warner.

bronfman sr. and bronfman jr. could NOT have both been ceo at the same time. it’s one of those space/time things. in any case, neither is the ceo of seagram anymore. patrick ricard is. oh, did i mention seagram was bought by pernod richard? it also does not own universal studios anymore.

universal studios, incidentally, is owned by vivendi, a french firm.

ge is run by jeffery immelt. why in the world would you list a vice chairman as “running” the company? was that the highest ranking jew you could find?

and last i checked, news corp was run by some aussie fellow. but that doesn’t fit into your theory so you have to pretend that a jew runs it, right?

so it looks like someone made a list of high ranking jews in media companies around 2001 and you just pass it along without checking to see if it’s correct.

May I point out that of the seven Jewish-Americans listed as running American media, two of them - the Bronfmans - are Canadian.

I would also like to point out a contradiction. If American does something that seems to be in its own best interests (narrowly defined as short-term and usually oil-related), it will be criticized. Examples: it fought the Iraq wars just because of oil; it didn’t go into Rwanda because no oil was involved, so it didn’t make any difference to Americaan business, etc. However, if America does something not in its own best interests, it will also be criticized. Example: it supports Israel (which one poster criticized because it’s not in America’s best interest to piss off Arab states).
They shouldn’t have invaded Iraq, because it was just for oil.
They shouldn’t support Israel, because Israel doesn’t have any oil,
and by supporting it we are angering countries that do.
Basically, to me this means that for many people, no matter what America does, it will be criticized. The rightness or wrongness of the action is irrelevant. Try not to be so hypocritical.

[quote=“bababa”]May I point out that of the seven Jewish-Americans listed as running American media, two of them - the Bronfmans - are Canadian.

I would also like to point out a contradiction. If American does something that seems to be in its own best interests (narrowly defined as short-term and usually oil-related), it will be criticized. Examples: it fought the Iraq wars just because of oil; it didn’t go into Rwanda because no oil was involved, so it didn’t make any difference to Americaan business, etc. However, if America does something not in its own best interests, it will also be criticized. Example: it supports Israel (which one poster criticized because it’s not in America’s best interest to piss off Arab states).
They shouldn’t have invaded Iraq, because it was just for oil.
They shouldn’t support Israel, because Israel doesn’t have any oil,
and by supporting it we are angering countries that do.
Basically, to me this means that for many people, no matter what America does, it will be criticized. The rightness or wrongness of the action is irrelevant. Try not to be so hypocritical.[/quote]

It certainly is not that simple. There are legitimate reasons for the criticism of both policies.

I guess you really don’t get it because you know nothing about Israel. Arabs in Israel have political parties, vote and have sitting representatives in the Knesset. Not only that, but they also serve in the Israeli Defense Forces.

us-israel.org/jsource/Politics/partytoc.html

Its odd indeed. Those intent on finding some other reasons for the US support of Israel never seem able to see any significance in the following two facts:

  1. Israel is one of the only democracies in the area; and

  2. A primary US foreign policy goal is the spread of democracy and the encouragement of democracies.[/quote]

except when those democracies aren’t in line with US interests.

JB:

Care to give some examples of where “democracies” have been opposed?

You would not be referring to the Islamacist movement in Iran would you? in 1979? which has brought “democracy” to the Iranian people? or perhaps you are speaking about our support now for Musharraf in Pakistan because there are so many other democratic alternatives that would be beneficial to our efforts in the region right? I mean Pakistan has been a democracy since 1947 and has only taken steps away from that because of US involvement? Or do you mean Chile under Allende in 1973 where there is absolutely no proof of direct US involvement and after three years there was a coup but given Allende’s record of not exactly upholding democratic traditions we must therefore be wrong? As to the 3.5 million Palestinians, they live in occupied territory and as such often have better protection of their human rights than Arabs in other states so what’s your beef? This has nothing to do with the US. Israel can deal with the problem as it sees fit.

Source: http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Politics/partytoc.html

"The Government of Israel will enable the (3.5million) Palestinians to manage their lives freely, within the framework of self-government. However, foreign affairs and defense, and matters which require coordination, will remain the responsibility of the State of Israel. The government will oppose the establishment of an independent Palestinian state.

  1. Jewish settlement, security areas, water resources, state land and road intersections in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip ([color=blue]note: Israeli government terminology for the Occupied Territories[/color]) shall remain under full Israeli control.

  2. Israel will keep its vital water resources in Judea and Samaria. There shall be no infringement of Israel’s use of its water resources.

  3. The Jordan River shall be the eastern border of the State of Israel, south of Lake Kinneret. This will be the permanent border between the State of Israel and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. The Kingdom of Jordan may become a partner in the final arrangement between Israel and the Palestinians, in areas agreed upon in the negotiations.

  4. Israel will conduct peace negotiations with Syria, while maintaining Israeli sovereignty over the Golan Heights and its water resources."

[color=blue]This map shows that the “eastern border of the State of Israel” – the Jordan River – clearly includes the 3.5 million stateless, voteless inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza within the borders of the state of Israel.

So, my question remains: how can a nation claim to be a bona fide democracy when it has 3.5 million voteless, stateless people confined within its borders?[/color]

Spook:

The Palestinians started the whole problem and could have had 97% of the West Bank and Gaza and Jerusalem in 2000 under the Oslo Peace Accords. Guess what happened to the Germans in East Prussia when they rolled the dice and lost?

I expect that you will also be howling about the unsettled state of affairs in the following places:

Kashmir
Tibet
Lebanon
Cyprus
Basque region of Spain/France
Corsica
Northern Ireland
Kurdistan (Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran)

If not, it MUST be because Israel is holding back Middle East peace right? Or would it be just a hint of anti-Semitism showing its ugly face?

[quote=“fred smith”]JB:

Care to give some examples of where “democracies” have been opposed?

You would not be referring to the Islamacist movement in Iran would you? in 1979? which has brought “democracy” to the Iranian people? or perhaps you are speaking about our support now for Musharraf in Pakistan because there are so many other democratic alternatives that would be beneficial to our efforts in the region right? I mean Pakistan has been a democracy since 1947 and has only taken steps away from that because of US involvement? Or do you mean Chile under Allende in 1973 where there is absolutely no proof of direct US involvement and after three years there was a coup but given Allende’s record of not exactly upholding democratic traditions we must therefore be wrong? As to the 3.5 million Palestinians, they live in occupied territory and as such often have better protection of their human rights than Arabs in other states so what’s your beef? This has nothing to do with the US. Israel can deal with the problem as it sees fit.[/quote]

Look in America’s “backyard” of Central America. Also, does the term French Connection mean anything?