US - Israeli Relationship

Flip, did screaming jesus claim that Scott Helvenston deserved to die? SJ noted, in the time-honored way of intelligent people, that it costs nothing for a mercenary to die, and there are fewer restraints on their behavior, which is, indeed, why the US government uses them.

Nobody deserves to die that way. But that is one of the job hazards of being a merc. And the gruesome mode of death does not change the fact that Helvenston was involved up to his ears in the illegal aggression and occupation of Iraq by the United States, and thus, was a willing accomplice in a very evil act.

This is not to suggest, before you have apoplexy, that Helventson deserved to die. Nobody deserves to die. But when you aid and abet a robbery, you have expect that the homeowners are going to fight back. And believe me, if someone dropped a bomb on my family, destroyed my economy, occupied my nation, and attempt to hijack its mineral resources and use it as a base for future wars of aggression, I’d hang their burnt bodies from my bridges too, regardless of what nice people others thought they were. After all, the Russians who occupied Afghanistan and the Chinese who currently despoil Tibet were all nice men too. That’s the real tragedy of evil policy – it pits decent human beings against one another.

Vorkosigan

i believe his exact quote was “They’re mercs. Got what they deserved.” now since they died, i’m just making a slight inference here that sj thinks they deserved to die. i don’t think that’s much of a stretch based on his comments.

and maybe you didn’t catch this quote:

“Every time one of them dies a gruesome death, it sends a welcome message to the powers that be”

Let me rephrase my remarks to: “I think you’ve got a point there.” :slight_smile:

Brutal, but true. The more we suffer in Iraq, the less likely the invasions of Syria and Iran that the Administration has fantasized about will actually come true.

Vorkosigan

Yes, I did say that. And did you expect to read about their sins on the obits page? For chrissakes, the papers aren’t even admitting that they were mercs!

Brutalizing your enemies is lower than pond scum in my book.

No cause and no grievance justifies it.

Tell me why these babies deserved to die?
portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/04/285247.shtml

You’re critical of one death but don’t give two shits about any others, especially innocent babies. That makes you an amoral self-righteous hypocrite, and that is expected from a bush bum armchair soldier.

i think your capacity for reasoning is off, european. i’m not making a big deal out of the fact that 4 men died. i’m taking sj to task for his satisfaction in the way they were killed.

Tell me why these babies deserved to die?
portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/04/285247.shtml

You’re critical of one death but don’t give two shits about any others, especially innocent babies. That makes you an amoral self-righteous hypocrite, and that is expected from a Bush bum armchair soldier.[/quote]

Oh great, the Eurotrash contingent weighs in.

How do we know that they weren’t killed by the insurgents? Look, the insurgents are the ones to blame for this, not the US military. Anyone with half-a-brain knows that.

You’re giving Eurotrash and his ilk too much credit.

[quote=“Screaming Jesus”]
Ever read “Soldier of Fortune”? [/quote]

Yes. I actually have the first 5 years complete. Do you? In addition I personally know several of the present and past editors and writers. Do you? Somehow, I have my doubts. One of my best friends in grad school was killed in Africa during a parachute jump. He sure as hell wasn’t doing it for the money or the glory…he thought he was helping his people. He was Black and from South Carolina.

Care to provide of proof? Come on, I’m really interested. Torture and gang-rape? Sounds more like United Nations Peacekeepers.

womenagainstrape.net/dark_si … eeping.htm
prisonplanet.com/news_alert_ … trade.html
globalpolicy.org/security/pe … 3peace.htm
oz.net/~vvawai/sw/sw35/Somalia.html
ssrc.org/programs/gsc/gsc_qu … ybill.page

I suppose you work for free, right? :unamused:

European:

And now you are interested in innocent babies being killed? What next? Anti-abortion positions from you? I do not recall hearing any protest from you during the 20 years of Saddam’s reign of terror so I will have to assume that given the far greater numbers involved that your concerns are highly selective to say the least. Remember now, that for all of the war, invasion, crime and terror, fewer than 9,000 Iraqis have died and this number includes many combattants or those directly placed in harm’s way by Saddam. Compare this with the 9,000 to 11,000 that the Dutch allowed to die in Srbrenica? the 2.3 million killed under Saddam? the 15,000 who died in the heat wave in France last summer and get a grip. Also, there is a very big difference between casualties that are deliberately inflicted on civilians and those that result from collateral damage, but do spare me any further concern for “babies.” I really have a hard time picturing you as somehow who really cares about “babies.” What next wailing women and shrieking children? Why is it that the life of women and children and now babies is more valuable than say males? boys? men? grandfathers? soldiers who have to fight?

Fred,

Morality isn’t a numbers game. It’s also not a sliding scale proposition in which dead babies of a Semitic population are automatically tossed into a “collateral damage” bin without a true examination of one’s conscience first as to what actions and what moral choices put them there.

Imagine that it’s someone you know lying there lifelessly on those bloodied sheets and you’ll know exactly what I mean.

Sincerely,
spook

My point exactly Spook:

It is not a numbers game but given that Saddam killed more deliberately and the terrorists are killing deliberately, it makes the US actions which indirectly result in loss of life pale in comparison. I will therefore expect you and other members of the outraged brigade to frequently rail against indiscriminate loss of life from terrorists and how happy you are that more Iraqi civilians are safe today from torture and murder now that Saddam is gone. I think that we can all agree on that.

Fred,

Neoconservas . . . vuhs! . . . Vuhsus! . . .

Ah, forget it. I can’t say neo and conservative together anymore. You know what I mean.

Neos are clearly better than Baathists and Middle Eastern terrorists.

I’ll give you that much.

On a Vancouver-based magazine that outed who was Jewish among Neocons… A letter to the editor…

Kalle Lasn,
Editor-in-chief,
Adbusters
Vancouver, BC

Dear Mr. Lasn,

I am an infrequent but often admiring reader of your Vancouver-based magazine, which lampoons corporate culture and the way advertisers manipulate the media to sell products and ideas. I’m no fan of the magazine’s reflexive anti-globalization stance, but at least you have shown a sense of humor in satirizing McWorld.

For a moment there I thought you were kidding, in the most recent issue, when you published your article titled “Why Won’t Anyone Say They’re Jewish?” That was the article in which you provided a list of the “50 most influential neocons” and helpfully placed a star next to those who are Jewish. “The point,” you explained, “is simply that the neocons seem to have a special affinity for Israel that influences their political thinking and consequently American foreign policy in the Middle East.” And in case we still didn’t get “the point,” you ended the article by declaring, “And half of them are Jewish.”

When readers suggested that such a singling out of individuals by ethnicity

Fred,

Potential conflicts of interest are legitimate issues for open and honest discussion. Particularly when U.S. public policies in the Middle East are being formulated by people with strong religious affiliations in the area.

Surely there has to be some rational middle way between a complete lack of discussion on the topic and Stalinist pogroms.

If not, then maybe we should strike George Washington’s parting admonitions to the nation from the historical record as little more than thinly veiled hate speech.

[quote=“spook”]Fred,

Potential conflicts of interest are legitimate issues for open and honest discussion. Particularly when U.S. public policies in the Middle East are being formulated by people with strong religious affiliations in the area.

[/quote]

wow. that sounds like the arguments used against kennedy when he ran for president.

Spook:

Isn’t this what you are primarily concerned about…

So therefore despite all the commentators in the Guardian and other leftwing rags, the president and his entire Cabinet not one of whom is a Jew are being tricked into acting in Israel’s best interests? Is that what you are suggesting as well? Gosh those darned Jews sure are tricky. Either that or they present their case better? Regardless, we are acting in Iraq only for Israel’s defense? Come on.

No. This is the sort of conflict of interest I’m concerned about:

"When Richard Perle was working for Senator Scoop Jackson, he was investigated by the Justice Department and found to have violated US policies relating to unlawful transmission of sensitive classified US information to Israel.

An FBI summary of a 1970 wiretap recorded Perle discussing classified information with someone at the Israeli embassy," writes Paul Findley (They Dare To Speak Out, Chicago, Ill, Lawrence Hill Books 1989).“He came under fire in 1983 when newspapers reported he received substantial payments to represent the interests of an Israeli weapons company. Perle denied conflict of interest, insisting that, although he received payment for these services after he had assumed his position in the Defense Department, he was between government jobs when he worked for the Israeli firm.”

Or, this:

"The President’s willingness to consider clemency for Pollard so upset the intelligence community that its leaders took an unusual step: they began to go public. In early December, four retired admirals who had served as director of Naval Intelligence circulated an article, eventually published in the Washington Post, in which they argued that Pollard’s release would be “irresponsible” and a victory for what they depicted as a “clever public relations campaign.” Since then, sensitive details about the secrets Pollard gave away have been made public by CBS and NBC.

In the course of my own interviews for this account, the officials who knew the most about Jonathan Pollard made it clear that they were talking because they no longer had confidence that President Clinton would do what they believed was the right thing – keep Pollard locked up. Pollard, these officials told me, had done far more damage to American national security than was ever made known to the public; for example, he betrayed elements of four major American intelligence systems. In their eyes, there is no distinction between betraying secrets to an enemy, such as the Soviet Union, and betraying secrets to an ally.

Officials are loath to talk publicly about it, but spying on allies is a fact of life: the United States invests billions annually to monitor the communications of its friends. Many American embassies around the world contain a clandestine intercept facility that targets diplomatic communications. The goal is not only to know the military and diplomatic plans of our friends but also to learn what intelligence they may be receiving and with whom they share information. “If a friendly state has friends that we don’t see as friends,” one senior official explained, sensitive intelligence that it should not possess – such as that supplied by Pollard – “can spread to others.” Many officials said they were convinced that information Pollard sold to the Israelis had ultimately wound up in the hands of the Soviet Union."

“Many observers say the judge was probably influenced by a 46-page memorandum from Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger.
In it, Weinberger wrote that Pollard’s crime was so great that it was difficult to conceive of greater damage to national security.”

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/576453/posts

Just curious, Fred and Flipper. Do you guys think Pollard should be released?

so why blame it on his jewishness? the fact that you would frame questions about him in terms of his “strong religious affiliations” is distasteful at best.

is he even an observant jew? does he eat pork? does he keep the sabbath? and what does being a strongly religious jew have to do with subjegating us policy to israeli interests? it might surprise you to know that there are a lot of jews with strong religious convictions who do not agree with israeli policies…