US to take all UK travellers prints

[quote]In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.
. . .
His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and independent states, that he treats with them as such, and for himself, his heirs, and successors, relinquishes all claims to the government, propriety, and territorial rights of the same and every part thereof.[/quote] The Paris Peace Treaty of 1783
law.ou.edu/hist/paris.html

[quote][T]hem that don’t like me can leave me alone.[/quote]–“Rye Whiskey,” traditional American ballad

[quote]I would like to take you seriously, but to do so would affront your intelligence.[/quote]-- William F. Buckley, Jr.

Have a nice day! :slight_smile:

no one is being treated like a criminal. it is simply a form of personal identification, to try to ascertain exactly who is coming in and out of the sieve, wait i meant country. little different than a passport photo.

considering the threats which the us is under it is a reasonable request.

the possible ways in which the US might abuse this information escape me. i hope someone could enlighten me as to what they are.

if anyone has a problem with this then they can simply choose not to go to the us. personally i will not be shedding any tears over the non-arrival of people who put their petty and knee-jerk personal concerns over the security of the mass of ordinary americans.

[quote=“Dangermouse”]The US has no right to take a sample from me, because I did not give them the right to take it. I am a foreign national.

[color=red]
THE US CAN GO AND F%&K ITSELF.
[/color]

How dare you. The United States does not have the right to impose it’s laws on anybody who is not a US citizen unless a person has broken a law already in existence whilst in the united States. I’d sooner burn off my fingertips then give the US government my prints when I am not a criminal - and I’m serious.

And still no one has given me any reasons as to why a database will counteract terrorism.[/quote]

the us isn’t imposing any laws on you. if you want to enter the country, you’ll have to be fingerprinted. if you don’t want to be fingerprinted, don’t try to enter the country. what’s so hard about that? you have no RIGHT to enter the us whenever you want.

as for how it counteracts terrorism:

you enter the us and get fingerprinted
you rent a van and buy some explosives
set off a car bomb
police are able to get some prints off the van rental form
police check database to see the name and passport you came in on

not very hard, is it?

Dangermouse wrote: [quote]I’d sooner burn off my fingertips then give the US government my prints when I am not a criminal - and I’m serious. [/quote]

Fair enough, if that is how you feel. But what are you doing in Taiwan where foreigners are treated as second-class citizens? And the darkie foreigners treated as third-class! I’ve lived here for seven fucking years but I can’t even get ADSL without a Taiwanese to sign for me. And it goes on and on and on.

DM, were you actually planning on visiting the U.S. in the near future? Or are you just having an anti-US rant? If so, that is okay, but it’s not a bad idea to keep in mind that the only reason Taiwan is free is because of American military muscle.

Peace through Superior Firepower!!!

[quote=“Flipper”][quote=“Dangermouse”]The US has no right to take a sample from me, because I did not give them the right to take it. I am a foreign national.

[color=red]
THE US CAN GO AND F%&K ITSELF.
[/color]

How dare you. The United States does not have the right to impose it’s laws on anybody who is not a US citizen unless a person has broken a law already in existence whilst in the united States. I’d sooner burn off my fingertips then give the US government my prints when I am not a criminal - and I’m serious.

And still no one has given me any reasons as to why a database will counteract terrorism.[/quote]

the us isn’t imposing any laws on you. if you want to enter the country, you’ll have to be fingerprinted. if you don’t want to be fingerprinted, don’t try to enter the country. what’s so hard about that? you have no RIGHT to enter the us whenever you want.

as for how it counteracts terrorism:

you enter the us and get fingerprinted
you rent a van and buy some explosives
set off a car bomb
police are able to get some prints off the van rental form
police check database to see the name and passport you came in on

not very hard, is it?[/quote]

WTF, by then it is to late. :loco:

The stated purpose is to combat terrorism, ie not let them enter in the first place.

[quote=“fred smith”]Flicka:

You don’t understand. Traveller has a “thing” with the US so no matter what it does or does not do, he is going to have something to bitch about. There is never any consistency to his positions unless you take anti-Americanism to be the primary filter.

I already have a biometrics passport so I don’t really know. Should Americans get fingerprinted too? Why the hell not? I certainly would not object.[/quote]

Fred, i have nothing against the US per se, unlike you and certain european countries, i just do not like the double standards being employed and then defended by idiots like you.

Just to make it clear, before Fred gets on his high horse again, i am not against the use of biometric data per se, what i am against is why it is only being applied to certain countries, it should be nothing or all, and all should include US citizens or passport holders.

I just wonder what the reaction of ‘joe public’ in the US would be if every country they wanted to visit imposed the same rules.
We know the new rule does not apply to diplomats, why not, they could just as easily be involved in terrorism as any ordinary person.

It is the inconsistency of application that creates the problem, not the rule itself, well at least for me, DM might say different for him though.

DM, if you do not want biometric data being collected on you, then once your current passport expires you are going to be living in the UK for the rest of your life. They will happen.

[quote=“Traveller”]
I have nothing against the US per se… [/quote]

cough Whatever you say buddy.

[quote=“Traveller”]This can be put far more simply.

Look after number one, USA, and f*ck the rest of the world.

Bloody typical Americanism.[/quote]

forumosa.com/3/viewtopic.php … ht=#162378

:bravo: :bravo: :bravo:

Glad you brought up double standards, let me remind you…

Speaking of the importance of the UN… most of the members are not democracies that do not allow the vote at home but expect to have a vote on international affairs.

The UN never authorized the invasion of Serbia, Kosovo or Bosnia. The Russians and Chinese vetoed.

The French and Germans while criticizing pre-emptive action, signed a treaty in Luxembourg in 2003 committing themselves to pre-emptive action.

The French and Russians and UN talk about international laws but given the corruption under the Oil for Food program, one really has to wonder which international laws they have not broken.

The French, Germans and Russians sold Saddam his arsenal of weapons not the UK, not the US.

The French like to talk about Kyoto but have not even lived up to their very minimal commitments. The previous Minister of the Interior admitted that France was not even close to meeting its targets.

Corruption is a major problem in most nations especially developing ones and places a huge cost/drag on the economy. Who has signed and ratified the OECD treaty to commit themselves to stopping corruption, prosecuting companies who engage in corruption, etc. ONLY THE US AND UK. No other European nation has signed it nor has Australia nor NZ. Why not?

So let’s talk double standards. Let’s talk about the hundreds of thousands of peace protesters and those chanting no Blood for Oil. Let’s examine their concern during Saddam’s reign. Let’s examine their concern when hundreds of thousands were dying under the Oil for Food corruption. Let’s listen to their record of protest against French, Russian and UN corruption.

Yes, double standards. I would love to talk about them.

AND

The US could act without UN imprimatur if it determined that it was acting in its self defense. Kofi Annan may disagree but he has no right to stop the US from acting in its self defense. No other nation has ceded this right to the UN why should the US?

The US soldiers involved in Abu Ghraib are wrong and will be punished. Must the US now ensure that none of its citizens are ever involved in crime? No. We must ensure that they are punished and they are so where is the double standard here? That some Americans have done bad things for which they are being punished or that those who criticize it so shrilly have been strangely silent despite the far more egregious abuses that have occured and are occuring elsewhere?

[quote=“Comrade Stalin”][quote=“Traveller”]
I have nothing against the US per se… [/quote]

cough Whatever you say buddy.

[quote=“Traveller”]This can be put far more simply.

Look after number one, USA, and f*ck the rest of the world.

Bloody typical Americanism.[/quote]

forumosa.com/3/viewtopic.php … ht=#162378

:bravo: :bravo: :bravo:[/quote]

BF, and that proves what ?

That is often the policy of the US as defended by people like you and Fred etc. On that basis then you are all anti american :smiley:

I may be anti some US policies, but that does not make me anti american though, subtle difference, maybe too subtle for you though. :sunglasses:

[quote=“fred smith”]Glad you brought up double standards, let me remind you…

Speaking of the importance of the UN… most of the members are not democracies that do not allow the vote at home but expect to have a vote on international affairs.

the UN never authorized the invasion of Serbia, Kosovo or Bosnia. The Russians and Chinese vetoed.

The French and Germans while criticizing pre-emptive action, signed a treaty in Luxembourg in 2003 committing themselves to pre-emptive action.

The French and Russians and UN talk about international laws but given the corruption under the Oil for Food program, one really has to wonder which international laws they have not broken.

The French, Germans and Russians sold Saddam his arsenal of weapons not the UK, not the US.

The French like to talk about Kyoto but have not even lived up to their very minimal commitments. The previous Minister of the Interior admitted that France was not even close to meeting its targets.

Corruption is a major problem in most nations especially developing ones and places a huge cost/drag on the economy. Who has signed and ratified the OECD treaty to commit themselves to stopping corruption, prosecuting companies who engage in corruption, etc. ONLY THE US AND UK. No other European nation has signed it nor has Australia nor NZ. Why not?

So let’s talk double standards. Let’s talk about the hundreds of thousands of peace protesters and those chanting no Blood for Oil. Let’s examine their concern during Saddam’s reign. Let’s examine their concern when hundreds of thousands were dying under the Oil for Food corruption. Let’s listen to their record of protest against French, Russian and UN corruption.

Yes, double standards. I would love to talk about them.

AND

The US could act without UN imprimatur if it determined that it was acting in its self defense. Kofi Annan may disagree but he has no right to stop the US from acting in its self defense. No other nation has ceded this right to the UN why should the US?

The US soldiers involved in Abu Ghraib are wrong and will be punished. Must the US now ensure that none of its citizens are ever involved in crime? No. We must ensure that they are punished and they are so where is the double standard here? That some Americans have done bad things for which they are being punished or that those who criticize it so shrilly have been strangely silent despite the far more egregious abuses that have occured and are occuring elsewhere?[/quote]

Fred, at least try to keep on topic, this is about immigration restrictions be applied by the US.

even though it is off topic, Iraq as a country posed no direct threat to the security of the US, stop dreaming Fred, wake up. No proof that even Saddam posed a direct threat to the US, his neighbours possibly, but not the US. The self defense issue is poppycock and horseshit.

[quote=“Traveller”][quote=“Flipper”]
as for how it counteracts terrorism:

you enter the us and get fingerprinted
you rent a van and buy some explosives
set off a car bomb
police are able to get some prints off the van rental form
police check database to see the name and passport you came in on

not very hard, is it?[/quote]

WTF, by then it is to late. :loco:

The stated purpose is to combat terrorism, ie not let them enter in the first place.[/quote]

so you don’t think a database of all visitors to the us and the increased ability to track them down helps in the fight against terrorism? i guess forensic scientists don’t really help combat crime because, you know, by then it’s too late. :loco:

[quote=“Flipper”][quote=“Traveller”][quote=“Flipper”]
as for how it counteracts terrorism:

you enter the us and get fingerprinted
you rent a van and buy some explosives
set off a car bomb
police are able to get some prints off the van rental form
police check database to see the name and passport you came in on

not very hard, is it?[/quote]

WTF, by then it is to late. :loco:

The stated purpose is to combat terrorism, ie not let them enter in the first place.[/quote]

so you don’t think a database of all visitors to the us and the increased ability to track them down helps in the fight against terrorism? I guess forensic scientists don’t really help combat crime because, you know, by then it’s too late. :loco:[/quote]

Flipper, as you dont seem to be aware, the biometrics are only used upon entry and exit, and therefore provide no tracking mechanism whilst in the US.

Forensic science in general helps to solve crime rather than combat crime. As many terrorists acting on US soil - such as 9/11 terrorists - tend to die with their act of terrorism then further combatting of crime by that person is non existent.

Even with a database it proves nothing really, most terrorist groups will just switch to those that have never travelled before and are unknown to the security forces, thus making these checks irrelevant. Plus if it is an attempt to combat terrorism taking place on US soil, then these checks should be done prior to boarding the aircraft, otherwise it will not stop 9/11 copycat attempts.

Why does it not apply to US citizens ? Or are you saying that only non americans cause acts of terrorism ? Does it apply when crossing the border by road say from Canada, if not then that is a loophole waiting to be exploited. What about people flying into the US on personnel jets landing at provincial or even local airports, do they all have the necessary equipment, or is this another loophole.

Traveller:

???

Well do you get your passport stamped when you go to another EU country or when you return home? Why should I as an American citizen be so discriminated against?

Let’s say that a terrorist commits a crime while in the US, then the fingerprints automatically link up with where and when he or she entered. It also ensures that those overstaying their visas if picked up would be caught as well. There are many reasons for this. Most are very simple and straightforward. The problem with 911 was that several of the terrorists were wanted. Had they been fingerprinted and in a database, they would have been deported before 911. This is quite simple so stop trying to make this an issue of disrespect or as somehow some sort of irratiional request designed to strip rights from people. It ain’t and you should know better. Ja wohl?

Not as simple as this. How about people with businesses in the US?
Businesses who send employees to the US?
People with friend in the US?
People with relatives in the US?
People who have to go to the US out of necessity?

It’s not just a case of wanting to go or not. Perhaps you should think things through a little clearer.

Perhaps you can also tell me why small children and babies need to be fingerprinted.
Why on earth do you need to fingerprint children? Do they pose a national security risk? Answers please.

How many businessemen or innocent family holiday makers are going to be fingerprinted?
What are they going to do, blow up the Grand Canyon? Car bomb Disney Land?
Come on.

As I said, in the UK only criminals get fingerprinted. Why should people who contribute to the US be treated like criminals before entry to the US?

And I will ask again:

UPON EXIT OF THE UNITED STATES, WHY ARE THE FINGERPRINTS OF INDIVIDUALS KEPT ON A DATABASE? WHT ARE THEY NOT ERASED? WHAT RIGHT DO YOU HAVE TO KEEP THEM?

HOW WILL A DATABASE OF FINGERPRINTS HELP IN THE FIGHT AGAINST TERROR AND HOW WILL IT IMPROVE SECURITY?

It is also the inconsistency that bothers me. As usual, one rule for the US another for everyone else.

[quote]DM, were you actually planning on visiting the U.S. in the near future? Or are you just having an anti-US rant? If so, that is okay, but it’s not a bad idea to keep in mind that the only reason Taiwan is free is because of American military muscle.

Peace through Superior Firepower!!![/quote]

I wouldn’t call it superior. Look at Iraq, Vietnam and the total mess they leave behind whenever they “visit” another country. Its OK having military fire power, but when it is used with total incompetency and in a gung ho nature, it’s not superior.

What makes you think Taiwan would be any different to Vietnam or Iraq?

All mouth.

I also have issues with the priciple of this whole affair. Why impose these rules and insult the people of a country that has done nothing to you and infact have actively stood by you, even in the face of adversity.

It’s appauling.

I used to be a strong supporter of the US, but after being in the military and seeing first hand how stupid, incompetent and dangerous the US military is and also how the US views the world and treats other countries through daft policies and reactions my support has waned.

As I said before
[color=red]The US can go and F*^K itself.[/color]

May I just say that I reserve these opinions about the US Govenment and it’s policies and is not meant against the US general public.

Fred, I can tell when it’s you in the cubicle because your voice is muffled by the toilet bowl.

Fingerprinting will not eliminate or even contribute to the war against tewwor.

Hmmmm Dangermouse:

I am really starting to wonder why you are so paranoid about having your fingerprints taken. No criminal records I hope? It seems that your reaction is all out of proportion with the measures being implemented. Also, can I stop having your immigration authorities ask me how long I will be in the country and to see an onward or return plane ticket? I mean they don’t ask that of British citizens do they? I feel discriminated against.

Finally, if you do feel that strongly about it, I guess you are probably that much better off by not going to the US. Wouldn’t want you to get so upset about how awful the US is that you would hurt yourself or others. Now about getting your head out where it can be photographed. That might be the first step…

[quote=“fred smith”]The problem with 911 was that several of the terrorists were wanted. Had they been fingerprinted and in a database, they would have been deported before 911.[/quote]Really How would that have helpped ? Why weren’t they matched by name when they entered the US ? Or when they took an internal flight ? Why would fingerprints make it easier to match them ? Did the US have their fingerprints ? Would the system have matched the fingerprints immediately to stop them entering ?

Standard airport practice. How does this infringe rights?
Fingerprinting infringes personal rights.

At last we are in agreement.

However, I still have some unanswered questions. Is it the fact that there is really no answer as to why the US is taking prints of foreign nationals. I will re-pose my questions:

Perhaps you can also tell me why small children and babies need to be fingerprinted.

Why on earth do you need to fingerprint children? Do they pose a national security risk? Answers please.

[b]UPON EXIT OF THE UNITED STATES, WHY ARE THE FINGERPRINTS OF INDIVIDUALS KEPT ON A DATABASE? WHT ARE THEY NOT ERASED? WHAT RIGHT DO YOU HAVE TO KEEP THEM?

HOW WILL A DATABASE OF FINGERPRINTS HELP IN THE FIGHT AGAINST TERROR AND HOW WILL IT IMPROVE SECURITY? [/b]

WHAT WILL THE US ALSO DO WITH THE FINGERPRINT DATABASE?

(ANSWER: Build databases and profiles of individuals and connect habits, whereabouts and travel of individuals together with biometric data. This way they can have a full profile of a person and connect a living being with the information they already have on paper)

Perhaps not now, but this is what it will inevetably lead to in the future.

I object. I will keep my privacy.

by keeping a database of fingerprints for all visitors, investigators are better able to id terrorists who come into the us on visas. i believe i already addressed that.