Value of training, degrees and qualifications

Work Teaching English in Taiwan
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Mod’s Note This was originally split from the “[url=http://tw.forumosa.com/t/foreign-teachers-reputation-in-taiwan/48953/1 teachers’ reputation in Taiwan[/url]” thread

[quote=“Tomas”]Many of my friends teach English full time. These are honorable, hard-working, successful people. Why don’t you tell us about your friends, let us blindly insult them at every turn, and then see how you like it?
[/quote]

That already happens, doesn’t it? Many of my friends are Republicans and Taiwanese. These are honorable, hard working, successful people that are often blindly insulted on the Living in Taiwan and International Politics Forum from mods and posters alike. :laughing:

Considering the number of backpackers and vagabonds in Asia (many of whom are some of the most fascinating and friendly people I’ve ever met), I don’t think it is too uncouth for us to laugh at some of the extraordinary news stories and interesting situations that some overseas people get into in unregulated occupations.

Some of the professions that are regulated in most of the developed world aren’t in certain countries in Asia and there can be definite lapses in professionalism when unregulated people enter a trade or profession that they aren’t trained to be in. Would you want a mechanic treating your teeth? Would you want a bartender being your architect? Doesn’t mean that there aren’t great people involved in these unregulated professions in Asia. However, I think many people would like to see the standards and screening process raised.

I think teachers should have teaching credentials to be teachers in the school system in Taiwan. Advanced degrees to become university teachers. ESL certifications to teach at any buxiban. Early Childhood development certification to work in kindy/preschool. If foreigners are hired for these positions, demand the equivalent from the Western world for them to do it in Taiwan.

Anyone else should be given a time period to become certified or be informed that they can’t work in the professions any more. Of course, many business would scream and kick as they might have to pay higher wages to the fewer qualified people available. In the end though, I think the quality would increase.

In my opinion, this stance makes me pro-teacher believe it or not and in favour of more government intervention in Taiwan. :laughing:

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[quote=“Chewycorns”] ESL certifications to teach at any buxiban. [/quote]Problem with that one is the course is useless. You learn to make lesson plans and present curriculum. Hmmm… I guess it’s not completely useless. There’s nothing in the course about classroom management, teaching phonics nor reading and writing. The course is good if you are to find a job in a school that has no structure, and the owners ask you to choose what to teach the kids, when to teach what, etc. But most buxibans are not foolish enough to leave that up to foreign teachers, and there’s usually(not always)a set structure in place. So the course is no use.

marboulette

PS: I have read very few posts from ralphy. Either he’s a “teacher hater” or not(or perceived as such), I don’t know, so I can’t comment further, Tomas.

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[quote=“marboulette”][quote=“Chewycorns”] ESL certifications to teach at any buxiban. [/quote]Problem with that one is the course is useless.[/quote]Which course? I don’t think Chewycorns had a specific one in mind, did he?

I think the CELTA/Trinity Cert TESOL are of some help when starting teaching, especially if the teaching practice and observations are done with classes of real students. The phonemic/phonetic stuff can be pretty interesting, too. Actually, all the modules are pretty good, though obviously there isn’t time to go into depth on anything.

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[quote=“joesax”][quote=“marboulette”][quote=“Chewycorns”] ESL certifications to teach at any buxiban. [/quote]Problem with that one is the course is useless.[/quote]Which course? I don’t think Chewycorns had a specific one in mind, did he?

I think the CELTA/Trinity Cert TESOL are of some help when starting teaching, especially if the teaching practice and observations are done with classes of real students. The phonemic/phonetic stuff can be pretty interesting, too. Actually, all the modules are pretty good, though obviously there isn’t time to go into depth on anything.[/quote]I did the TESOL one. I did it online. Maybe it’s not as good? It was a bit of reading, and a pile of assignments. I received the certification before I even stood in front of a student. My paper was graded 96% and I received a separate “certificate of excellence” along with the license.

Maybe it did more for me than I realize, but I don’t feel like it has benefited me any whatsoever.

marboulette

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CELTA’s not much use on the buxiban scene Taiwan because no-one really cares, but I wouldn’t have been able to get my last four jobs without it.

Most courses are designed for adult teaching, not kids specifically. ‘Phonics’, in the Taiwan sense of the word is slightly odd and not particularly effective in my experience, anyway. It’s just one approach.

marboulette, many buxiban bosses don’t speak English so they have no other way but to leave it to junior staff. Personally, I can (and have) construct an English program more than adequately. Generalisations are the problem here.

[quote]I think teachers should have teaching credentials to be teachers in the school system in Taiwan. Advanced degrees to become university teachers. ESL certifications to teach at any buxiban. Early Childhood development certification to work in kindy/preschool. If foreigners are hired for these positions, demand the equivalent from the Western world for them to do it in Taiwan.

Anyone else should be given a time period to become certified or be informed that they can’t work in the professions any more. Of course, many business would scream and kick as they might have to pay higher wages to the fewer qualified people available. In the end though, I think the quality would increase.[/quote]

Chewy, so why doesn’t this happen? Because buxibans and students cannot pay and Taiwan is not a ‘charity’ destination; the majority of teachers with those credentials simply wouldn’t do it for 100 000. No more native speaking teachers coming here.

Buxibans would not be able to operate within those kind of financial restraints.

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As has already been mentioned, requiring buxiban teachers (and presumably kindergarten teachers too) to be qualified would make it impossible for anyone to hire foreign teachers without seriously upping the tuition fees. So, people get what they pay for.

With regard to teachers in the school system, here’s what I can say about that:

I am employed through a recruiter that has contracts for several (maybe even many – I’ve heard it’s a big company, but don’t know) schools in Taiwan. None of the teachers at my school or the two other schools we have regular dealings with is unqualified. I have also encountered other qualified teachers randomly, but employed by our company and at other schools (including private schools). I’ve never encountered a teacher in the government system who isn’t qualified. Maybe some have fake degrees, but from everyone I’ve spoken with, it’s been pretty obvious they’ve gone through an education course in the West.

For a while, our school was using some subs who were not qualified teachers, but they didn’t do that for long. We now have a surplus of teachers at our school precisely so we can cover each other’s classes and so they don’t have to bring in (unqualified) teachers from outside. They do all this despite the fact that it is often extremely hard to recruit teachers here. We have high turnover still and it takes them ages to get new teachers. Whilst they treat us in typically odd Taiwanese ways in some ways, in others, they’re eternally grateful to those of us who have seen our contracts out and renewed them.

Therein lies the rub. For a teacher in the West, coming to Taiwan would not only be a sideways step in a career (unless they taught their specialiations in an international school), it would also probably interfere with settling down and raising a family. Without exception, every teacher I’ve met has thus been one of the following: retired/close to retirement in the West, or at least has grown up children – this entire group seems to make up 1/2 of the workforce; a hardcore traveller looking for a base to explore Asia; a misfit in the West; or has some particular connection to Taiwan (e.g. the pretty common scenario of meeting a Taiwanese partner in the West and then marrying and moving here).

Then, of course, there’s the international job market. I’ve known two guys who have left Taiwan to the Middle East because they could get more lucrative offers.

Making the buxiban market like this would practically wipe out half the people here. You might get some very young people doing it for a year, maybe two at most. However, it would be the kiss of death on getting most girls (and probably a lot of guys) over the age of 25 for any or all of the reasons given above regarding money, career or family.

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I could care less about their qualifications. Papers don’t make you qualified and most people don’t know how to do their jobs until they actually get one. Furthermore it is possible to become an accountant without a B.A. in accounting.

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I know 2-3 competent, unqualified teachers. They have a LOT of experience, are very reflective in their attitude and have above average intelligence. 95% of unqualified teachers are absurd and talk utter shit. Read TEIT.

This reflective and self developmental attitude is the most important thing. If you arrogantly reject even basic teacher training, you don’t signal to anyone that you are a person with an open mind who is open to new techniques and ideas.

You are not allowed to teach ESL/ESOL for public schools and colleges, or accredited colleges in my country without qualifications. Is that a silly kind of intellectual protectionism? No, it’s a common sense way of weeding out uncommitted people, criminals, people without a good level of education and people with no technique who simply cannot cut it in terms of classroom management, curriculum planning and administration.

The next reply to this post will be along the lines of ‘But teaching in Taiwan is just babysitting anyway!’ ‘But they don’t pay me to put in any extra effort’ ‘my boss doesn’t care: why should I?’. Yes, the business is a cynical, depressing joke but that’s all the more reason for you to get the most out of it for yourself and your students by educating yourself. A qualification is a springboard, not a closed set of knowledge. A base to build on.

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Hardly reality. One can easily find many uncommited teachers in most public school systems just sitting their because they know it is a safe job. I have had teachers that barely know more than their students.

I really doubt that classroom management can be learned in a university classroom. It is like trying to teach someone to play British or American football in a classroom. They might no all the techniques and still not be able to perform well.

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Hardly reality. One can easily find many uncommited teachers in most public school systems just sitting their because they know it is a safe job. I have had teachers that barely know more than their students.

I really doubt that classroom management can be learned in a university classroom. It is like trying to teach someone to play British or American football in a classroom. They might no all the techniques and still not be able to perform well.[/quote]

That’s anecdotal. The chances of having a clueless teacher are greatly reduced if they studied, surely? Sorry, I didn’t explain properly. By ‘committed’, I meant ‘interested enough in the job to go to lkearn how to do it in the first place’.

Sure, experience is important in classroom management. But when you have two inexperienced teachers (and a qualified teacher would have classroom observation experience, so is at least a few hours more experienced that the unqualified), would you prefer the one who had never taught but had read and listened to more experienced teachers, and tried out techniques in a controlled environment, or would you prefer a well-meaning person making a guess, using ‘common sense’?

The unqulified teacher is taking students’ tuition fees, the very first time he goes into a classroom. That’s not really good.

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[quote]
The unqulified teacher is taking students’ tuition fees, the very first time he goes into a classroom. That’s not really good.[/quote]

The qualified teacher also wasted student’s time in his or her own country when they did their teacher’s training course.

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[quote=“steelersman”][quote]
The unqualified teacher is taking students’ tuition fees, the very first time he goes into a classroom. That’s not really good.[/quote]

The qualified teacher also wasted student’s time in his or her own country when they did their teacher’s training course.[/quote]

OK, if you want to argue, rather than debate, that’s fine. And check your grammar!

They are told they are being taught by trainees in order to get cheap courses!

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[quote]
That’s anecdotal. The chances of having a clueless teacher are greatly reduced if they studied, surely? Sorry, I didn’t explain properly. By ‘committed’, I meant ‘interested enough in the job to go to learn how to do it in the first place’.[/quote]

Hardly true. In some cases teacher’s with a BA Education spent lots of time taking classes about education and don’t have a strong grasp on their content area.

Furthermore do you really think a trained Taiwanese teacher’s students who spend hours learn random vocabulary words will understand and speak English better than an untrained foreign teacher.

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[quote=“steelersman”][quote]
That’s anecdotal. The chances of having a clueless teacher are greatly reduced if they studied, surely? Sorry, I didn’t explain properly. By ‘committed’, I meant ‘interested enough in the job to go to learn how to do it in the first place’.[/quote]

Hardly true. In some cases teacher’s with a BA Education spent lots of time taking classes about education and don’t have a strong grasp on their content area.

Furthermore do you really think a trained Taiwanese teacher’s students who spend hours learn random vocabulary words will understand and speak English better than an untrained foreign teacher.[/quote]

There are many many threads on this topic. Do a search? Teaching ability and subject knowledge are both important.

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Any information on what percentage of people pursue a career just out of interest. I will look for some statistics myself.

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One doesn’t need to spend much time in Taiwan to know that people do jobs that they are not interested in.

From msnbc.msn.com/id/17348695/:

[quote]This echoes January survey by CareerBuilder.com that more than four out of five U.S. workers do not have their dream jobs.

Overall, dissatisfaction has spread among all workers, regardless of age, income or residence. Twenty years ago, the first time the survey was conducted, 61 percent of all Americans said they were satisfied with their jobs, according to the representative survey of 5,000 U.S. households, said Lynn Franco, director of the Conference Board’s Consumer Research Center.[/quote]

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So what’s your point? If people don’t care about their profession, unqualified people are better? I have no idea what you are talking about.

As I said, there are dozens of TEIT threads about whether unqualified teachers are better than qualified teachers. If you’re interested, you could do a search to get the different sides of the ‘debate’.

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Any information on what percentage of people pursue a career just out of interest. I will look for some statistics myself.[/quote]
I don’t think that’s what Buttercup means. I think she means having training tends to indicate a certain level of interest, stickability, and financial commitment (even a bog-standard CELTA costs 800 pounds or so; a fair bit when you’ve just finished uni!) Not that trained teachers don’t care about material rewards and never feel even a little bored.

I’m sorry, but it does sound a bit now as if you’re arguing for the sake of it. Why not give it a rest for tonight and come back to the debate tomorrow? And perhaps in a different thread. This isn’t really about teachers’ reputation any more.

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I really don’t know what you mean by unqualified. Since we are talking about Taiwan I thought we were talking about people with B.A.'s as opposed to people with B.A. Ed or B.A. PAGE.

I would guess that if with had someone with just a B.A. and someone with a B.A. Ed that there is hardly much difference.

It is not like someone with a B.A. or even higher degree in another field would be clueless about teaching. After sitting through 16 years of formal education one should have some idea how people teach no matter whether they have a teacher’s license or not.

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So does coming to Taiwan to teach no matter if one has a degree in education or not.