I came across this article today and I think it everyone should give it a read. Finally there’s a word to describe the everyday monotonous conversations that wear us down. My favorite is the Simplified vs Traditional conversation. I’ve got that one down perfectly and don’t have to think at all.
It’s called “Yes, I can use chopsticks: the everyday ‘microaggressions’ that grind us down”, and it hits the nail on the head. This article’s about Japan, but the exact same things apply here, as well.
Ironically, I found this article while sitting on the train in Yilan just after a group of Uni students “welcomed me” to Taiwan with some awkward group attempt in English, to which I replied in Chinese that I’ve lived here for three years, met with outrageous laughter from the group because omfg the “Indian” can speak Chinese. I wasn’t gonna tackle the fact that I’m not Indian and just walked away, disgusted, yet again. It’s not my job to teach geography and educate this whole damn island on appropriate social norms. It’s our job as foreigners to deflower the locals, obviously. That’s been our role for centuries.
Interesting, insightful, and very true of experiences in Taiwan as well. It really does wear you down…it wore me down anyway. It was refreshing to move to the UAE where I NEVER get questioned / treated like that.
While Dr. Sue’s suggestions are interesting, the major flaw with transferring the results to Taiwan is that the “cultural representatives of all Taiwan” are a handful of posters on forumosa.
I live in Yilan at the moment. I get this kind of experience daily, not just on the train.
Wait until you marry a Taiwanese woman and eat with her extended family often. That takes the annoyance of the chopsticks thing to another level. You think they should know that after five years that I do know how to handle them sticks…
I think this line is interesting. I can’t keep explaining to every single person that Americans don’t have to look like Anglo-mix blonde hair, blue eyed lacrosse players and that it’s a multi-ethnic society. I can’t keep saying ABCs are not 回来ing TW because they are not Chinese/Taiwanese by nationality, just ethnicity. I now just say I’m from a country that I “look like” because trying to teach them about the world outside of TW takes too much of my energy and time and they really didn’t care to learn in the first place otherwise they would have already known. Also, it makes that monotonous conversation I already had twice that day last longer than I wanted it to.
I don’t treat a Chinese/Hispanic/Indian/not-white person in the United States with that amount of disrespect asking them why they are in America, how long they are staying, fumble at their ‘native language’ because there’s no way they can speak mine, and be amazed they can use a fork every single time I see them just because I’m “curious to learn about them”. It’s just tiring to have to deal with the same shit all the time. I try to mix it up to keep from going crazy. Last week I was Italian, and this week I’m going to be Argentinian. Also, I’m a masters student at NTU studying…international relations or something.
Anyone who doesn’t believe at least some part of this article is living in complete denial.
This doesn’t make any sense. ??
That’s because they don’t want to bother you with their presence … :roflmao:[/quote]
I wish they would have that same courtesy when they hold my food hostage to chat with me.
Dude, I get that in 'merica as well with the Jackie Chan shit. Get use to it or, hey, live in an area where people could give a rat’s a$$ of where you’re from…Tianmu perhaps.
That’s cuz you ain’t a redneck…but that doesn’t mean it don’t exist in 'merica.
Get with the program. You were in Yilan…hell…Chinese Limbaugh county. How’s that for comparison?
Have you tried Burkina Fasoan yet?
I believe it…but now I’m on the other side of the table
I don’t treat a Chinese/Hispanic/Indian/not-white person in the United States with that amount of disrespect asking them why they are in America, how long they are staying, fumble at their ‘native language’ because there’s no way they can speak mine, and be amazed they can use a fork every single time I see them just because I’m “curious to learn about them”. It’s just tiring to have to deal with the same shit all the time. I try to mix it up to keep from going crazy. Last week I was Italian, and this week I’m going to be Argentinian. Also, I’m a masters student at NTU studying…international relations or something.
Anyone who doesn’t believe at least some part of this article is living in complete denial. [/quote]
In terms of the Hispanics, maybe you should, a tremendous amount of them do not speak English and are in the country illegally, putting that aside…
Apples and oranges and a really stupid comparison.
In the US, you see a dude in his 20’s who is clearly Asian…chances are hes American.
In Taiwan, you see a dude in his 20’s who is clearly Caucasian, chances are… (i’ll let you try to fill in the blank here)
No denial, but would you like some cheese with that whine of yours?
It’s probably not the best thing to embed the word, “aggression,” into those behaviours because it implies, as does the article, that these are acts of violence and deliberate subjugation. In some cases these actions can have limiting effects, like the promotion thing, but it is so engrained in Japanese culture that ALL non-Japanese cannot own property and will eventually leave. Being asked if you can use chopsticks is just a local person being either curious or just a bit dull, tiresome and dense. This is not an act of aggression designed to mark you out and ridicule you. It is a bonding mechanism. Or a way to pass the time. If you go into these situations thinking, “He is making a monkey out of me,” you will come out of it feeling worse than when you went it. If you go in thinking, “I wonder what I can pick up THIS time, credit card? Shoe?” then you will come out of it having made a friend, or made someone smile. What you haven’t done is made some racist divide appear in your mind, and you haven’t pissed either of you off. Also, take the time to learn more about chopstick culture from these people. Get them to show you how they hold them. Challenge them to pick up single grains of rice floating in water. Have a laugh in life, for lords sake.
When dealing with those situations you have a number of strategies. You can look at what the conversation really means. Kids talk to you on the train, the old crazy guy gives you the stink eye and asks how come you are so tall, these are your little cultural moments of joy that you left your home for. These are the stories you will have to tell your friends when you go home. Frame them as special moments in your day, not moments when your precious me time is interrupted by some fool. Have some fun.
Not going home? iPod, newspaper, dark glasses, babble in a strange accent if people persist.
Also, teenagers are thick twats the world over. I wouldn’t talk to strange ones on the bus in the UK, because they would be taking the piss out of me. They can’t help it, their bodies are undergoing massive changes.
When I lived in Japan, I knew I was leaving again. These little things were wonderful. Picking up peas with chopsticks to the applause of the drunkards buying me booze. Getting meals dropped round to my house because I probably didn’t know how to cook rice. Getting someone to drive me to the shop to buy Kerosene. Having a drunkard fix my electrics in the pouring rain. In Taiwan I thought I was there forever, and suddenly these things were not so cute any more. Difference between these experiences? My attitude towards them.
You have to either suck it up, change how you feel about it, or get some technology to help you circumvent it.
[quote=“mike029”]I came across this article today and I think it everyone should give it a read. Finally there’s a word to describe the everyday monotonous conversations that wear us down. My favorite is the Simplified vs Traditional conversation. I’ve got that one down perfectly and don’t have to think at all.
It’s called “Yes, I can use chopsticks: the everyday ‘microaggressions’ that grind us down”, and it hits the nail on the head. This article’s about Japan, but the exact same things apply here, as well.
Ironically, I found this article while sitting on the train in Yilan just after a group of Uni students “welcomed me” to Taiwan with some awkward group attempt in English, to which I replied in Chinese that I’ve lived here for three years, met with outrageous laughter from the group because omfg the “Indian” can speak Chinese. I wasn’t gonna tackle the fact that I’m not Indian and just walked away, disgusted, yet again. It’s not my job to teach geography and educate this whole damn island on appropriate social norms. It’s our job as foreigners to deflower the locals, obviously. That’s been our role for centuries.[/quote]
I just assume everyone here to be a bit simple, and like I would treat a simpleton, I don’t really get mad. When I meet people with depth I am pleasantly surprised.
Taiwanese people (and obviously Japanese, and of course the Mainlanders and I am sure Koreans) say the stupidest shit to me, and you and everyone else ALL THE FUCKING TIME. It isn’t racism or bigotry that leads me to this conclusion, simply the scientific method. But to be fair, they rarely talk about anything interesting amongst themselves, minus the times groups of like-minded people get together to discuss what they are like-minded about.
I laugh at it now, and give answers to these moronic questions that entertain ME. When a third party laughs, or is hip to my methods, I maintain my faith in humanity.
Bottom line, we are all the same, but we are all different. Whitey isn’t preoccupied with the same shit the locals are and vice-versa. To them we are just a bunch of fucking spaced out oddities floating around their orbit that they hope won’t crash land on them. But the beauty is when you stop giving a fuck about what the locals think, stop reading the China fucking Post, stop following their green and blue nonsense, stop caring about comments a ditzy fucking xiao jie who is deeply insecure makes, then and only then, will you be free, and the people here who get it (and so few people anywhere truly get it) will make your life here very enjoyable.
Do a reverse Rudolph and choose not to play these reindeer games. Happiness will bless you, this is the teaching of the Buddha.
Taiwanese also use similar “social greasing” statements among themselves. Its to lessen the distance between two people and promote social harmony.
A lot of it is harmless chatter. It was designed to be that way.
It can be tiresome, but play along with it and its not that bad.
We use those same things here in the west too, just that perhaps you are not aware you are doing that?
Im downstairs walking the cat and anyone walking past me is “obliged” to say hi, and exchange some pleasantries. Its the way its done here. In Taiwan its done for similar effect but perhaps with other statements. Taiwanese like to get on a personal level real fast and westerners do not. There is a big difference and one that irks most western educated people.
A taiwanese wont approach you and say “hello, nice day isnt it?” To which you would reply “yup sure is nice” and you go your merry way.
Taiwanese would approach and get personal . “Hi , halo? Where you come from”.
And thats what irks western educated people.
It pulls our strings and makes us react NON positively.
Thing is taiwanese will not pass by a stranger and say “Halo, nice day isnt it”. It just isnt done. The taiwanese person does NOT say anything to a passerby unless its a particular statement that involves something about that person or what that person is doing or planning to do. Say one person sees another taiwanese person holding a particular item. He/she may say “oh is that brand good” or something.
It just wont do to just say “halo, nice day isnt it” The other taiwanese will think you are insane or something.
YOu can say things like "oh nice day " but usually not to complete strangers, but rather someone who is not close but someone you see often. LIke a neighbor or the custodian of your building or the such.
But two taiwanese strangers passing each other will not likely say “halo, nice day”
Taiwanese people (and obviously Japanese, and of course the Mainlanders and I am sure Koreans) say the stupidest shit to me, and you and everyone else ALL THE FUCKING TIME. It isn’t racism or bigotry that leads me to this conclusion, simply the scientific method. But to be fair, they rarely talk about anything interesting amongst themselves, minus the times groups of like-minded people get together to discuss what they are like-minded about. [/quote]
Isn’t this just part of the human condition though DD, we just chat shit. I’ll talk about Tottenham, or the weather, or something I saw in the street, or the trains. Just the minutiae of life. I don’t want to spend all day discussion localised brain functioning, or the value of a Tukey’s test, or if postmodern methods are better than hypothetico-deductive ones for qualitative analysis. I just want to talk about a fart I cracked on the train, or a nice coffee I had. People just don’t want to sit and show off and discuss high brow things all the time because it is exhausting, and really a little bit futile. I am sure that is the same the world over. People CAN say smart things, but they don’t want to bother. You show me a cat falling asleep on a dog over a linear regression equation any day of the week. And not because I don’t understand linear regression, I just can’t be faffed with it all the time.
Plus people in Birmingham say to me ALL the time, “You aren’t from round here are you?” and some will ask, “What is London like?” or, “Is London much bigger than Birmingham?” or “Why don’t you move back to London?” or the classically unanswerable, “I went to London once.” It’s like 80 miles from where I was born to where I live now, but I might just as well have crawled out a crater in the ant nebula for the fascination my accent brings out in people. I’m not all that bothered about having this same convo over and over. It happens to people who move down the road. It’s really got nothing to do with being in Asia, or Asian people specifically. It’s just a function of group behaviour. It’s easier for them to see you though cos your skin is a different colour to theirs.
There is also the likelihood that Taiwanese people can’t say much in English beyond a few platitudes to you. They can likely discuss intelligent things, just not with you. You end up stuck in the same conversations due to language barriers. And then form an opinion that because the only things they can say to you appear idiotic, that they themselves must be idiotic all the time. Then you look for ways to prove to yourself that the people around you are idiots. Which begs the question, “Why live in a place where nobody around you can stimulate you mentally? Why live with people you think are simpletons?”
Anyway, better to be bored than ignored.
And Tommy is also right, it’s just a social pleasantry that you are not conditioned to because you didn’t grow up in Taiwan.
When I’m talking about how I treat people, it’s not a representation of all Americans. Also, I never said anything about Americans. I really hate when someone says something negative about TW everyone’s first reaction is: “Well in the US…” or “Well in Mainland China…” as if those places have any effect on the issue in TW. Taiwanese treat their foreign laborers better than Malaysians…as if this somehow excuses Taiwanese mistreatment of laborers. Taiwanese cities aren’t nearly as dirty as Mainland cities…as if this means Taiwanese cities aren’t dirty?
[quote]In terms of the Hispanics, maybe you should, a tremendous amount of them do not speak English and are in the country illegally, putting that aside…
In the US, you see a dude in his 20’s who is clearly Asian…chances are hes American.
In Taiwan, you see a dude in his 20’s who is clearly Caucasian, chances are… (I’ll let you try to fill in the blank here)[/quote]
This is the difference between you and I. I don’t assume I know someone else’s situation, let alone their personal immigration status (or lack thereof), and honestly, I don’t care because it’s none of my business. I don’t walk around Arizona carding Hispanics in broken Spanish threatening citizen’s arrest. I look Hispanic and would not appreciate some idiot doing that to me. Being asked “what are you doing in Taiwan” once every three hours feels like that. It feels like they are checking to see if I have a purpose here. According to you, that means that people here have the right to assume they know my situation here and treat me like a tourist every second of every day because, hey, I’m a foreigner so I must be a tourist because by percentage, there are more tourists. For all they know, I could have been born here. There are plenty of people around here that claimed ROC citizenship and they must be fed up with this. …and cue SatTV to wave his shenfenzheng around and claim how he’s a true local
I agree about having a preconceived notion about how something is supposed to go will affect your outlook on the situation. When I first got here (well, to Beijing) I was all gung-ho about talking to people and making new friends, getting free drinks/dinner/whatever, then I got sick of “meeting” the “same person” over and over. How many times can I meet Kevin, the 21 year old commerce student who likes playing warcraft and wants to practice english but never has anything to say, or the ayi at the laundromat who thinks i’m so handsome and goes on and on about how I should find a Taiwanese girlfriend, or the taxi driver who wants to tell me why taiwan is or isn’t independent because as a high ranking political officer of my home country, I have the power to make his wishes come true. It’s sounds awful but these people are all exactly the same. I may be interesting for them to interact with, but they offer nothing in return to me friendship-wise because we have nothing in common except agree that I’m good looking. I am their foreign friend Mike from America and they are just another random person that chatted with me. My Taiwanese friends are not people that randomly wanted to jiaoliu with me, and they don’t ask me stupid questions like “what kind of pizza do foreigners like?” or “what’s your favorite taiwanese food?” (which btw my favorite answer is to say i don’t like any Taiwanese food and watch their reaction. it stuns them) The only thing I can do now to keep myself from going crazy is just answer bullshit to everything they ask like Deuce said and watch how they react. Or just buhaoyisi and walk away.
Anyway, this thread isn’t about me personally, I just think that this article is very interesting because it tries to address the reasons behind why people do what they do, even though they may be well-intentioned. Being shocked that I can drive a scooter doesn’t come off as “that’s great you have the ability to drive a scooter”, it’s true meaning is “only Taiwanese people should be able to drive scooters, you shouldn’t know how”. Add in the Chinese “nobody can stand out from the crowd” crap to this. I have never once said that Taiwanese people are full of malice and just want to intentionally insult foreigners, but it’s their ignorance that doesn’t stop them from taking actions that may be perceived as offensive by others. Do they ever put themselves in my shoes and think that maybe they weren’t the first person that week/day/hour to ask a stupid question and how I might not want to answer? That’s the point, here.
I think the term "microaggression’ comes from the fact that it is an aggression. It’s an act of expressing your true negative feelings masked with something that seems innocent to the naked eye. It’s a furthering of “us vs them”, making sure you are aware that you don’t belong, although nobody is intentionally doing it. It’s based in the culture, and depends on that culture’s willingness to accept what they perceive as outsides. I think all cultures are guilty of this, not just the Chinese or Japanese. Applied to Chinese society it opens a lot of interesting doors for understanding social development and interaction, though.
Very cool theory. Kind of reminds of “microexpressions” a bit (yes, I watched Lie to Me).
Try to think about things on a different level.
Here’s an example: Why do Taiwanese people wait in line for the MRT?
Most people would probably say “…because Taiwanese are so polite.” I would say it’s more likely they have extreme social coaching going on here with propaganda banners all over the place brainwashing people to wait in line (as they do in many other places with other stuff you “should do”), as well as painted lines on the ground to shame people that don’t stand in them because in Chinese society, nothing is a stronger motivator than shame.
That’s all I’m getting at. This theory is an interesting one that I would like to explore more.
[quote=“mike029”]
Here’s an example: Why do Taiwanese people wait in line for the MRT?
Most people would probably say “…because Taiwanese are so polite.” I would say it’s more likely they have extreme social coaching going on here with propaganda banners all over the place brainwashing people to wait in line (as they do in many other places with other stuff you “should do”), as well as painted lines on the ground to shame people that don’t stand in them because in Chinese society, nothing is a stronger motivator than shame.
That’s all I’m getting at. This theory is an interesting one that I would like to explore more.[/quote]
Why do people fastidiously stand on the right on the escalators in the London Underground, but in New Street Station they just stand all higgledy piggledy? I don’t think there is much rhyme or reason to this sort of stuff.
And I can’t agree that these things are acts of aggression. You just sound a little tired and probably need a vacation or something. How many times can I speak to the guy at my local takeaway? Or perve over Gemma who works in my local supermarket? Or talk to my mate about his son? Or discuss why I like to eat mild curry to a friend who likes to eat hot curry? And I live in my home country. Certain features of your interactions in life are going to be asinine or boring.
Of course, it’s a fascinating theory, and all I am really doing to is trying to put in some overseas perspective from someone who can see the same boring dull shit going on in the UK.
Gosh, if you aren’t willing to admit that there are different ways of thinking about things (for example, what’s polite and what’s not), maybe you’d better stay in your home country where things are done “normally”. Because underneath all the festivals and lovely national costumes, culture is nothing more than what you regard as “normal”.
