Well, since you consistently refuse to answer any of the questions put to you, I guess you’re just a troll.
You also seem to have changed your stance – first it was unification, now it seems to be “no immediate declaration of independence.”
Big difference.
Most Taiwanese do not seek immediate independence. They just don’t want to be ruled by the communists.
Please make up your mind what your position is before you troll.
It would also be nice if you would answer the questions that people have asked you. After all, it was you who started the thread in the first place.
That’s a nice yacht you have, btw. You say you’re not looking for crew. Does that mean you do those blue water voyages alone?
you guys put words in my mouth non-stop… where did you see the term “unification” in my posts? I expect a 30 year timetable before Taiwan merges into “one China”. Why the hell you assume the only alternative for non-independence is to go under the only-the-mother-could-love commie rules? It’s well understood by all parties involved (yes, including China) that Taiwan will get a deal ten times better than that of Hong Kong. Taiwan keeps her full democratic system from the very top down, her own currency, military, her own foreign affairs and the whole nine yards. Even the official name (ROC or PRC) and flag can be discussed. The merging process can be prolonged & conditional. All China wants today is a most remote agreement on building this future “one China”. Taiwan not only can enjoy her established prosperities in every practical way, she can critisize & blackmail China at her heart’s contents for years to come.
[quote]
Most Taiwanese do not seek immediate independence. They just don’t want to be ruled by the communists.[/quote]
So, you do know what’s going on in Taiwan!!! Why you pretended you’re deaf & blind all the time???[quote] Please make up your mind what your position is before you troll.[/quote]
Tell me about it.
Worse than that… my cat is dead…
You should tell the rest of folks here what “nationality” I entered under my profile? And, as you can imagine from the site I run, more than 80% of my friends (all time) ain’t Chinese. I was speechless to learn that I am a “racist”! I think it’s time to improve my skills.
[quote]I expect a 30 year timetable before Taiwan merges into “one China”. Why the hell you assume the only alternative for non-independence is to go under the only-the-mother-could-love commie rules? It’s well understood by all parties involved (yes, including China) that Taiwan will get a deal ten times better than that of Hong Kong. Taiwan keeps her full democratic system from the very top down, her own currency, military, her own foreign affairs and the whole nine yards. Even the official name (ROC or PRC) and flag can be discussed. The merging process can be prolonged & conditional. All China wants today is a most remote agreement on building this future “one China”. Taiwan not only can enjoy her established prosperities in every practical way, she can critisize & blackmail China at her heart’s contents for years to come.
[/quote]
Why, that sounds simply wonderful! What’s all the fuss about? Why, that’s a much better deal than Hong Kong’s 50 years of autonomy … oh, wait, the commies have already broken that promise after just what, 5 years. Oh well, maybe they added the extra zero by mistake.
So China will have two presidents. two armies, etc. It’ll be so much fun!
Well here’s an idea. Just let it go. I can’t speak for anyone else but I’ve been living here and considering these issues for a long time, and I frankly find your ideas farcical. Since you state your attitude so succinctly above I won’t waste my time explaining it to you. let me just say again that you are truly one of the unique Taiwanese people I’ve ever met and that if you want taiwan to capitulate, don’t dance around it, just say it. talk about wasting time.
[quote=“tomyang”]Even if I were arrogant, you shouldn’t let the pride block your reasoning.
We’re discussing a very big issue here.
[/quote]
tomyang, at the time you posted this, you hadn’t even begun to discuss “the issue.” You just started assuming what other people might think.[i]
[quote=“tomyang”]Yesterday, I wrote a long explainations about why Taiwan should
not seek immediate independence. When I re-read it and edited it, I
realized there’s nothing new in it – history, blood, pride, democracy,
corruption, crime, economy, resources, military, wars, international affairs,
“one China, two systems”, Time Table, European Union, Hong Kong,
KMT, USA, even Tibet, Mongolia – it’s all been said repeatly
every single day, and readily available in Taiwan, even in good English.
Sigh, do I have a translation project here? with my Chinglish?
Once you step out of door, turn on your TV, radio or computer,
you have to be deaf and blind not to be aware of the “WHY”! [/quote]
[quote=“tomyang”]Keep up the good work! One down, 99,999 to go! Before you call me
chicken, just remember I am the only one here with a real name.[/quote]
tomyang, you are the one who started the thread. You have already decided in your head what everyone else here believes and you haven’t even stated your own position clearly. The only thing we get from you is: a.) you have a PhD (but no writing skills to match it);b.)you have an expensive sailboat; c.) you supposedly speak five languages and d.) you have been to “50 countries.” You also seem to think that you are somehow more honorable because you have posted your name but I have not given you mine.
Tomyang, nobody here gives half a damn about any of these things. You could be full of sh!t about all of them. This is the internet. We have no way or reason to verify the claims of a guy who thinks it gives him face to tell everyone about his PhD or his sailboat. The only thing this forum is good for is making well argued points and sharing verifiable information to back them up. We don’t care what your name is. We are never going to meet you or see your sailboat. There are people who have posted on this forum for years who have never directly mentioned anything about their names, jobs, education levels or how much money they have because all of that means jack squat here. The only thing that matters is how well you make your argument.
Tomyang, do you have any idea of where I am posting from? Look to the left of your screen, moron. Dongguan, Guangdong province in the PR FUCKING C! Although no one here cares to know, it’s fine and dandy to post your name when you are posting from Canada or Taiwan. Your point of view may be unpopular or poorly presented (in your case, you haven’t even argued your point, you’ve just pigeonholed others), but nothing will ever happen to you for having presented it under your real name. Yes, the chances of an English site like this being monitored are quite slim, but I am not in the habit of taking unnecessary risks just to satisfy a moron who thinks it proves something about his manhood to post his name and information about his sailboat online.
It seems to me that you just can’t express your own opinion. Do you even have your own opinion? You keep trying to fall back on your so called elite group of “100,000,” and you tell us that all the arguments have been made by others before. Tomyang, we can all read the newspaper on our own. We can all watch TV. You, however, started this thread. We don’t care about what an invisible mass of people think. We don’t care about the skewed opinion poles or political rhetoric on TV. We want to know what Tomyang thinks and why. Your attitude is typical of nationalistic mainlanders and treasonous ROC nationals. You pigeon hole the other side and refuse to even thoroughly discuss the issue. It isn’t because you disagree with our opinions; up to now, I’ve told you none of mine about Taiwan’s status. You just assume that you have the franchise on the truth and that no one with a different opinion or background (read: foreigner) could have a better understanding of the situation or could contribute to a mature discussion.
Tomyang, disputes are resolved through debate. Refusing to debate never solves a problem. In the case of Taiwan, if mainlanders and Taiwanese continue to take an attitude like yours, the only guarantee is that there will be a bloody war and that a lot of mainlanders, Taiwanese and Americans will die. The Americans will be certain to insure that that list is in descending order.
I don’t recall seeing it anywhere. What I did read is that you would offer to work for the mainlanders for free to stab your fellow Taiwanese in the back. Uh, duh Tom. The only work you would be doing for the mainlanders would be for forced unification. I don’t think they would be calling on your fine analytical skills to help work out a “one country-two systems” approach for unification. It doesn’t matter if you work for the mainlanders to subvert the ROC this year or 30 years later. You are still treasonous scum.
Understood by all parties involved? In my opinion, that is wishful thinking. All of these things have just been floated out through a side door to act as teasers. To even find out if the ROC can get any of it in a deal with the PRC, it must first surrender. Taiwan will not really get much better of a deal than HK because there is no reason for Beijing to give better terms. Taiwan keep its own currency? Uh, duh, that’s no better than HK. They still have the HK$. Her own military? Well, no one is going to be willing to sell any hardware to Taiwan if they cut a unification deal with Beijing. The U.S. won’t do it because the risk of technology transfer to the mainland is too high. Taiwan won’t be able to buy from Russia because the Chinese will threaten to cancel/reduce their own contracts with Sukoy, etc and just produce locally.
There is simply no good reason for Beijing to let Taiwan have more freedom than HK in a unification deal, and there are good reasons not to. Hong Kong was, is and will continue to be China’s international capital market. The image of openness, stability and the rule of law is essential for maintaining such a market. Taiwan’s capial market is a joke. China has no need for it. For Beijing, there are no more benefits from preserving/advancing the rule of law and democracy in Taiwan than in any part of the mainland. In addition to preserving HK’s capital market and logisitics industry, the only other reason Beijing has for respecting the Basic Law is that they want to give Taiwanese the impression that they can get the same treatment. In reality, there will be no reason for Beijing to adhere to the letter of any unification agreement with Taiwan because there will be no other independent territorries to impress with good behaviour. Judicial independence? You can forget about it. They have already popped that balloon in HK.
From an ethnic point of view, the mainlanders would be stupid to let Taiwan preserve much autonomy. If they allow true autonomy for Taiwan, a place that is 99% Han, then non-Han minorities will clamor for the same.
In my opinion, China had a lot to gain from preserving the system in HK. China has relatively little to gain from preserving the system in Taiwan. The rule of law in Taiwan is weak, so the financial sector is no where near as developed as HK’s. The economic benefits that can be gotten from unification with Taiwan can already be had by the mainland: a highly technically skilled workforce and good managerial talent for high-tech manufacturing. Those things won’t suddenly disappear if Beijing needs to crack the whip on a disobedient Taiwan. The flow of talent from Taiwan to the mainland is only getting faster; cross straight tensions don’t have much effect. Unlike the case of HK’s financial sector, Beijing can find substitutes on the mainland in a relatively short period of time for any benefits a stable Taiwan can bring to a unified China. The mainlanders just aren’t willing or able to be as flexible as you wish they could be.
You’ve just blinded yourself for all these years and refused to acknowlege the existence of these facts. You have no excuse to say
that you didn’t see them. You have a selective eyesight of 70% reduction
to totally miss these facts.
Obviously, you Jive Turkey are a disturbed person without much self-esteem and with some subtle inferiority complex.
You want to prove something? Prove it to someone else. I couldn’t care less.
[quote=“tomyang”]Obviously, you Jive Turkey are a disturbed person without much self-esteem and with some subtle inferiority complex.
You want to prove something? Prove it to someone else. I couldn’t care less.[/quote]As I said previously:
Am I to interpret your last post as a capitulation on the thread YOU started?
i have lived in the states. i have lived in china. i have lived in taiwan.
go to china. put aside the chimera of “home” that you have so lovingly crafted and dare to think for yourself.
look with your own eyes. see what is to be seen. get out of the big cities. live in the country side. i dare you. see the heart wrenching poverty. clothe the nude beggars. step around the dead who apparently get hit by traffic and then are transformed into human road kill.
then come live in taiwan.
savor the flavor of the difference. having been to both places. you tell me which one you would want your children to grow up in.
Well said, Skeptic Yank. I’ve also lived in both Taiwan and China. I love Chinese culture, history, philosophy, literature, etc. … and people here ask me all the time why I don’t go to China to study … I tell them to go and live in China (outside of Beijing, Shanghai, and the SEZ’s) for a few months and then ask me that same question again. It absolutely baffles me how this arrogant, overly-nationalistic, narcissitic buffoon can have such romantic notions about China and be so sure of his beliefs without ever having set foot there. But then again, I’m sure he thinks that since he has Chinese blood he already knows everything there is to know, and no whitey could ever possibly understand anything about China or Taiwan.
remember all the folks on the other side of the straight who would go on (and on) about how chinese food is “the best in the world” and then in the next breath would admit that they had never tried the food of other nations?
for some reason, those folks pop into mind reading this thread.
remember all the folks on the other side of the straight who would go on (and on) about how Chinese food is “the best in the world” and then in the next breath would admit that they had never tried the food of other nations?
for some reason, those folks pop into mind reading this thread.[/quote]
I’ve heard that countless times. Not only have they never been abroad to try anything else; half of the people who say this can’t even afford all the great Chinese food they are talking about.
Greetings All,
Another thread turned into a pissing contest…
I’d like to steer this thread back to some reasonable discussion. If you guys look at Tomyang’s original post (before all the endless replies got out of hand), he does make a fairly good analogy of Hillary Clinton to the Taiwanese people. His point is that Hillary Clinton had a chance to do something rash (kick Bill in the nuts), but held back, seeing the bigger picture of how such an action would jeopardize her political future; the same can be said of the Taiwanese people, they would like independence (just like I’m sure Hillary REALLY wanted to kick Bill’s nuts), but are not going to actively campaign for it, because they see the bigger picture, they realize such an action would disrupt the status quo and would most certainly provoke a war with the mainland. Hillary rightfully ignored the feminist pledges to neuter Bill because she realized that they were outsiders that had no stake in her political future; just as the Taiwanese people ignore the loud protests of foreigners and international groups who publicly advocate Taiwan independence even though they themselves have no stake on the island.
It is easy to shout slogans and raise placards when you have nothing at stake. Every time I see people in DC, chanting passionately “Taiwan Independence” or “Free Tibet”, and I cannot help but shake my head. Trust me the Taiwanese people do not need us to speak up for them. For us to be doing so is, at best, patronizing, and, at worst, irresponsible.
Why would this be irresponsible? Easy, because we all know what would happen if Taiwan WERE to declare independence.
Let there be not doubt, if Taiwan were to unequivocally declare independence the mainland would invade in no time. Deng Xiao Ping himself said, that China would only invade Taiwan under three conditions a) if foreign governments became involved in Taiwan’s internal politics, b) if civil war erupted in Taiwan, or c) if Taiwan declares independence. While Deng Xiao Ping is long dead, I’m pretty sure this is still the current government’s stance on the issue, and will be for a LONG time.
That’s why although most Taiwanese would like independence, they are not going to actively campaign for it, because they have nowhere to go once the tanks start rolling in; while the foreigners and international groups who cry the loudest for independence will be the first to bail long before the missiles start flying.
I think Jive Turkey was on the right track when he questioned Tom’s nationality and loyalty to Taiwan; but then so can most Taiwanese pose these exact same questions to all of you people here.
I don’t care how much you people proclaim to love Taiwan and call it your home; the fact is will you stay if a war were to break out? Will you voluntarily join the Taiwanese Army? If not then your claims are as hollow as the “patriotic” taxi drivers and street vendors who evade taxes. I’m sure everyone here is sensible enough to not want a war, so just be quite and let the Taiwanese speak for themselves.
As they say, be careful what you wish for, it just might come true.
Note: you guys need to cut him Tom some slack. I like to emphasize that he DOES have a Taiwan passport, which is more than I can say for myself and most others here. This is crucial in this debate because it shows that he has something at stake in Taiwan (I assume he still has family). The fact that he has something at stake in Taiwan (and I don’t just mean trivial things at stake) gives his opinions more weight than any of ours despite how much we love to show our erudite knowledge on the issue. Why??? Because being a citizen of Taiwan he can turn his opinions into something more concrete, a vote; while our opinions are just that, opinions. It
Well, there is a big difference between what Tom Yang and Lich have said. While I don’t agree with some of the points Lich has made, at least he has made an effort to express them politely. Tom Yang didn’t even want to have a discussion. He came here and pigeonholed everyone. He just assumed that he already knew what our views were and began firing away. His Hillary Clinton metaphor was insulting because he assumed that all of us here support Taiwanese independence. Many of us do not.
Lich, I think your statement about foreigners residing in Taiwan having no stake on the island is a bit too black and white. I am not one of them, but there are a few posters here who have no other home except Taiwan. Compared to a person like Tom Yang, they may have more interests in Taiwan to protect. Many of them would like to take ROC nationality, but it is almost impossible. Similarly, there are quite a few ROC citizens who hold a second passport from the U.S., Canada, etc. These people can jump ship just as easily as any foreigner. Why should they have any say in what happens? I see absolutely no problem with non-ROC citizens expressing their opinions about Taiwan’s status. Just because such opinions can’t be expressed in the form of a vote does not mean that they are invalid in debate. Voters can decide for themselves whether to listen to these opinions.
My guess is that the number of ROC citizens who have a second nationality far exceeds the number of foreigners residing in Taiwan. These foreigners pay taxes, too. I’m not saying that such foreigners should be allowed to vote, but I think it is quite hypocritical every time I hear a Taiwanese person tell a foreigner to shut up when he/she expresses an opinion about unification/independence. The reason given is always: “well, you can leave any time you want, so your opinion is invalid.” However, hundreds of thousands of Taiwanese who can leave just as easily because they either hold a foreign passport or right of residency in another country can say what they please. The only reason they are never told to shut up is because their ability to flea is not so obvious. In my opinion, the reason many Taiwanese aren’t willing to listen to a foreigner’s views about Taiwan’s status has nothing to do with that foreigner being able to leave in a crisis; such Taiwanese are unwilling to listen simply because they are unwilling or unable to hold a civil debate based on the facts. I have lots of discussions with mainlanders about U.S. political issues. No matter how nutty I’ve thought their views were, I can’t recall ever having told them to shut up just because they aren’t U.S. citizens.
I know this will sound nitpicky, but he does not have a Taiwan passport. He has an ROC passport. Yes, I believe this is crucial in the debate, but not for the reasons you have explained. Because he is an ROC citizen, Tom Yang should maintain a basic level of loyalty to the ROC government, even if that government happens to be green for a few years. Opposing independence in a civil way is completely acceptable. Using one’s right to vote to choose anti-independence canidates is fine. However, Tom Yang told us all that he is willing to work for the mainlanders to subvert the ROC government. In my opinion, he can’t have his cake and eat it, too. He told us that he will return to Taiwan and exercise his right to vote, and then he told us that he would basically commit treason against his own government if he had the opportunity. Lich, what would you think if a few months ago, some Howard Dean supporters in the DoD told you that since they opposed invading Iraq, they would help the Iraqi government in any way they could? If you want to have a civil society, you can’t break the law when you don’t get what you want through the ballot box.
I am a U.S. citizen. Although I am often very sympathetic to Taiwan’s situation, my views about U.S. policy toward Taiwan are ultimately based on the interests of the U.S. My view is that it is in the national interests of the U.S. to promote civil societies in any country where we have an influence. My view is that the rule of law, an open economy and democracy in some form are the three pillars of civil society. It is in the interests of the United States to encourage the development of these three pillars in Taiwan. Independence is not a requirement for the development of democracy, the rule of law or an open economy. Taiwan can have all three in a situation of de facto sovereignty. Cosmetic name changes will have absolutely no positive effect on the lives of Taiwanese people any more than unification or independence would make any real difference for the lives of mainlanders.
Relatively idealistic people might say that I am anti-democratic because I don’t respect Taiwanese people’s desire for independence. I have two responses. The first is that it is still not clear that the majority of Taiwanese people are ready to endure real hardship to achieve internationally recognized independence. One could say they are pragmatic; one could also say they are cowards. The reason makes no difference. If they aren’t clearly ready to send their sons to die for a “Republic of Taiwan,” then why should the United States?
U.S. democracy is my second reason for not supporting Taiwan democracy to the point of declaring independence. Just because the majority of voters in Taiwan may one day decide that they want to declare independence does not mean that the majority of voters in the U.S. will agree. The popularly elected U.S. Congress passed the Taiwan Relations Act. The Act says nothing about supporting independence. Should U.S. voters sacrifice their interests just because a few million people in Taiwan want to risk war for the sake of a name change? Fuck that. There are a million and one things that the ROC’s leaders could do to improve the lives of their citizens before even thinking about independence.
Now if thirty years from now, Taiwan is a much more civil society and an overwhelming majority of its citizens want to declare independence, then I may change my mind. If I really do think that independence is required to maintain or develop civil society in Taiwan, then I will support independence. However, I don’t see that situation in front of me today.
How many of those loyal ROC citizens have put their ass on the line to protect this rock. I personally know more Americans that have done far more to protect the lives and well being of the inhabitants of this island than any Taiwanese or Chinese I have met here.
