What do people mean Taiwan is more China than China

I’m not sure what you mean there, but whatever.

In most cases it’s more like light ==> lite or through ==> thru, with the occasional weird one like fish ==> ghoti.

As I said, the degree of freedom even for the majority is lower. That’s still far from what the Chinese equivalent of an American ban on going to church would be. And I’ve seen Chinese people worshipping in Chinese temples despite your impression that it’s all for tourists. Don’t get me wrong here: I know about the difficulties, but you make it sound like the average Han is terrified to whisper amituofo in his own home, as if that would mean instant deportation to a gulag. That’s not how it is.

And yes, atheism is way more popular now than it was mid-20th century, and yes the CR is partly responsible for that, but guess what… atheism is also way more popular now in the West than it was mid-20th century.

We don’t say 台端 on Rigel VII, if that’s what you mean. Our pronoun wars are far more complicated…

I was talking about the sudden drop after CCP took over. This shows that CCP is the reason why there were suddenly so many people who turned atheist. I’m not sure how familiar you were with chinese history. But it is a well known fact that religion was a target during cultural revolution. Temples were torn down. Scholars were killed. I don’t see how this could be “ transitional” under any circumstances. 破四舊立四新 is their campaign and it means to destroy everything that’s old. Buildings, books, history, transitions, people. I think they even pointed out “traditions” are one of their four old targets. They themselves don’t even deny this.

So How is cultural revolution and CCP not destroying religions, including the mainstream?

I know there are more atheist nowadays, but the drop in the number is unnatural. The way you say it is like saying people die everyday so covid is not a big deal. Sudden drop. Sudden. and drop.

They’re just advertising their tradition for political reasons now. Because what’s gone is gone. Religion is dead there. Some people struggle to bring it back but hasn’t work yet. You can’t even go to a famous temple without paying entrance fee. And if your sect attracts too much attemtion, you’re in trouble. Everything has to be approved by CCP. don’t recall any other religions that has to be approved this way. The only religion left there is called CCP. You can’t doubt it you can’t criticize it you can’t do anything that’s not allowed by CCP. And they’ve even got the ceremonies, like 春晚 and the military parade. Pretty much a religion to me. If that’s what you meant then I stand corrected.

Please tell me you don’t agree with writing thru, coz, dunno, u, in textbooks and any formal statements from the government? Coz according to your analogy, China is doing this right now.

You know what’s funny? Heard that they only take away to strokes per word averagely. It destroy the whole aesthetic without doing any actual good. Why even bother at the first place?

In traditional Chinese,
“鳳游禾蔭鳥飛去,馬走蘆邊草不生。”, you get “禿驢”

And with Simplified Chinese,
“凤游禾荫鸟飞去,马走芦边草不生。” the answer is 秃驴. Doesn’t make so much sense. Since there’s no 鳥(bird) in the word 鳳(chinese Phoenix).

This is the only example I could think of at this moment. There are far more. A lot of things wouldn’t make sense under the concept of simplified Chinese.

Traditional:
麵無麥、愛無心、單翅能飛, 餘不食、親不見、無門可開
Simplified:
面无麦、爱无心、单翅能飞, 馀不食、亲不见、无门可开

You tell me this wouldn’t hurt the culture. Hell they don’t even know how to write their ancestors names right.

I’ve heard professors from China complaining about how simplified Chinese lacks of beauty. Never heard any Taiwanese professors complained about traditional Chinese with similar problems.

I think this was meant for some other reply…
I was trying to explain why I agree with the statement “Taiwan is or China than China” but not fully agreeing it.
This statement is only true because China is so far away from what used to be called China, not because Taiwan is so much like China.

But you’re right, what ever. I Remember typing this at 5 in the morning… wasn’t thinking straight then. :sweat:

We’re sort of getting away from what I was responding to earlier, namely this:

I never said things in general are better there. If you’ve read my posts over the years, you should know I have zero interest in living there (again). The food, air, and water are polluted. The rule of law is a dream. Censorship is annoying. Xenophobia is on the rise. And so on.

But you (and others) keep describing the place as a caricature, using some flawed arguments in the process, so I think it’s worth pointing out at least some of those flaws. Bottom line for me: it’s not black and white.

I thought we were talking about China today, not 50 years ago.

I disagree. You say efforts to revive religion have failed. I say efforts to destroy religion failed. Those efforts were damaging, but it was too strong to be destroyed.

What’s the threshold for famous? The same thing happens in other countries, eastern and western.

That is true. And they do approve many temples, and until the last few years they basically left churches (the approved ones) alone as long as they segregated Chinese from foreigners. Now they’ve withdrawn approval of enough of them to get attention in foreign media, but there’s still no outright ban.

That’s a fair comment that many people have made over the last half century about Communist regimes in general. I do hope you apply the same standard of judgement to the trappings of nationalism (military parades, government-run arts events etc.) in other countries. :yin_yang:

No, I don’t approve of coz, dunno, and u in formal writing. I wouldn’t approve of ghoti either. Thru I could tolerate, since it makes sense, has been around for centuries, and is probably going to replace through anyway. But I never said simplified characters were better, and I happen to prefer traditional characters myself (though I might feel differently living in a computer-free world).

No, you tell me I tell you that.

Most people of German heritage can’t read their recent ancestors’ names in Kurrent (20th century), to say nothing of medieval calligraphy. Scholars argue about the dozen(?) spellings of Shakespeare’s name and whether or not they were all the same person…

To be clear, I don’t think any of this sort of historical murkiness is a good thing, but I don’t think it proves any country’s cultural inferiority.

First of all “light” is not the same as “lite”. They mean two separate things except when “light” is used as an adjective.

Second “thru” is not even a real word. :face_vomiting: That’s how illiterate people spell… Similar to the idea of spelling “though” as “tho” :nauseated_face: :face_vomiting:

I guess people who really know Chinese will feel the same as I do when they see “Simplified” Chinese.

What??? This is preposterous. 85% of Hakka/Holoes have an aboriginal DNA component (mine is 9%, as I stated in a previous thread) but you’re saying the aboriginal share is dominant. I have never ever read anything to that extent.

Family annals is a cultural practice that has persisted for generations on end and is required for ancestor worship. We’ve also been able to triangulate with other branches along the same line.

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Why would they need to adopt chinese culture if that was the case?

ô-á-tsian already answered below, and I’ve gave examples above.

Since Han-style ancestor worship was placed at high value, aside from what people spoke or wore, elite Han people, who dominated the government and commerce, also judged “sameness” based on whether or not you have a Chinese family name, worshiped ancestors the same way, have the right Tonghao or Zhuji on the gate or tombstones.

This is at a time when people from different provinces kept to themselves even for commerce in China. The Han Chinese xenophobia is pretty high. So if you want to make it in trade, not to serve manual labor drafts (mandatory for Aboriginals), or escape other forms of persecution, blending in would be the way to go. Their only alternative would be to move to another location, such as Puli, but eventually Han immigrants catches up to them.

But I thought you were asexual… :thinking:

I think you are reaching at best.

How many people here saying China is not Chinese have ever lived there for a significant period of time, and how many of those outside the major cities? China is the most Chinese thing I can imagine. People have funny ideas of what makes a culture. It’s not a wuxia movie anymore. People dress differently, they don’t care much about superstitions, the governmental system is different, but what’s changed has changed in the most Chinese way possible. While they don’t care for some of the old art and architecture, a lot of it really is still there. China is the most Chinese thing imaginable.
This is a weird conversation. I remember about ten or fifteen years ago on this forum positing that Chinese culture existed in Taiwan and everyone jumped on me and called it fake, which would likely happen with more fury today if this question had been posed in a different way.

it would be more constructive if you point out which parts you do not agree with, why and based on what evidence.

i and others have, you skimmed those.

ô-á-tsian have, and I’m gathering numbers to reply him, but I don’t think you have. You did imply that Pingpu women were South East Asian wives, but that’s about it.

i did not. i implied that the same customs for han dominance probably existed then as they do now. theres no reason for that not to be true.

Most of the data below came from the following papers:

  1. 台灣行政區域人口密度: 1640–2008
  2. 荷蘭時代的臺灣番社戶口表
  3. 臺灣史上的人口問題

Dutch census, which were limited to a portion of Southern and Northern Taiwan, showed that there were 40 to 60 thousand Plains Aborigines living under Dutch ruled areas. Japanese study showed that based on the Dutch census, total Plains Aboriginal population at the time can be extrapolated to around 350 thousand, and other Aboriginal population at 250 thousand.

image

Dutch census of Plains Aboriginal villages under their control. Post 1654, the Dutch were losing control of territories in the North and into the mountains, and that’s the reason for a decline in the number of villages and population. As you can see, prior to 1654, Aboriginal population was growing at a rate around 2% annually.

Fast forward to when the Japanese first started conducted census around the 1905, which encompassed a much larger area than the Dutch, they also showed there were still just 40 to 60 thousand Plains Aborigines living in the Western plains.

In terms of population, we should have seen an increase of Pingpu Aborigines across 258 years, especially when the census was conducted over a larger area.

The Dutch introduced some Chinese labor to Taiwan, which by the time they left numbered at 27.5 thousand.

Koxinga and his son brought about 37 thousand troops and officials to Taiwan, and Koxinga occupied a rather small portion of Taiwan as well. There were additional immigrants who followed Koxinga to Taiwan and the number is harder to estimate, but the total Chinese population on the island at the time was no more than 120 thousand. At the same time, Koxinga razed several Aboriginal tribal kingdoms to the ground, massacring entire villages. So we would probably see a decline in Aboriginal population.

When the Qing conquered Koxinga’s Dongning Kingdom, they sent at least 40% of the total Han population back to China.

There are 3 different Taiwan population numbers you could extrapolate from Qing dynasty data.

  1. The official number, which is people that actually pay taxes. The unit is Rending (人丁) and prior to 1741, that number doesn’t necessary represent male head count in an household. It merely represents the amount of taxes one family needs to pay. An estimate is for every 人丁, there were 4.99 actual people.
  2. Starting from 1741 (6th year of Qianlong) there is a census based on the Baojia system. This time everyone, including men women and children were counted, as long as they are in the Baojia system. In Taiwan that means if you are an Aborigine, you are not counted.
  3. The third number can be estimated from the amount of salt sold.

In 1685, when Qing first counted, Rending decreased from 21,320 in the Koxinga era to 12,724, confirming that 40% of Taiwanese Han people were sent back to China. Using the 4.99 times estimate, there were around 63 thousand Han Chinese in Taiwan at the beginning of Qing rule.

By 1688, in a document hilariously called Changing Dynamics of Chinese and Barbarians (華夷變態), which for most people today would mean Hentai Chinese and Barbarians, it mentioned

以前台灣人口甚為繁盛,漢人民兵有數萬人,自隸清以後,居民年年返回泉州、漳州、廈門等地,現僅有數千漢人居住。

Taiwan used to be a very populous place, with Han civilian soldiers numbering to the 10 thousands. Ever since Qing rule, inhabitants were sent back to Quanzhou, Zhangzhou and Xiamen annually. Now there are merely a couple thousand Han Chinese living here.

Which at the time was a pretty small portion of Taiwan, and Qing eventually slowly pushed out to most of the plains, but by the end of the Qing era, they still ruled less than 50% of Taiwan in terms of total area.

Even in 1862, official Chinese map of Fujian province is missing significant portions, and Qing didn’t have control of plenty of regions depicted either. The same goes for Japanese numbers prior to 1919. There were large swath of Aobriginal lands that the Japanese could not freely survey or conduct a census.

In terms of population, there’s not a huge amount of Chinese immigrants flooding Taiwan as you might have imagined. That is because for the most part Qing actively discouraged immigration to Taiwan. By 1737, they even decreed that there can be no further Han Chinese and Aborigine intermarriages, those who broke this rule will be sent back to China.

So between 1691 to 1711 Rending increased by just 755. By the 1711 census, there were 540 thousand Pingpu Aboriginals an estimated 350 thousand other Aboriginals, and just 49 thousand Han Chinese. Han Chinese made up just 5% of the total population.

The population of Taiwan held pretty steady for most of the 1800s. It is only when Japanese civil engineering transformed the productivity of the land that we saw the first population boom.

So if not for mass sinicization of the Plains Aboriginals, what would explain the ratio drastically change between 1711 and 1905, if the population stayed pretty much the same?

The pace of Sinicization didn’t slow during the Japanese era, especially after the Japanese stopped counting Plains Aboriginals separately from other Han Taiwanese, which eventually led us to where we are now.

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http://www.thruway.ny.gov/index.shtml
Official site of the NY State Thruway (not Throughway)

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:face_vomiting:

Pleaded -pled, dreamed- dreamt, dropped- dropt, kneeled- knelt.
Spellcheck tries to tell me ‘pled’, ‘dreamt’, and ‘dropt’ are incorrect, but ‘knelt’ is right and ‘kneeled’ wrong. Times change.

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Spellcheck, spellcheckt

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