What is "WaterBoarding?

How is it done? What actually happens when it is done to a person?

This topic has inspired a lot of comments on here. I thought this short video might help people understand what ‘waterboarding’ actually is ad what it does.

disclaimer:
The persons shown are all adults and professionals - DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME

Playboy.com journalist Mike Guy underwent waterboarding by a trained member of the U.S. military in the site’s new Lab Rat feature.
Guy bet that he could endure 15 seconds of the interrogation technique used by the Bush administration on al Qaeda chief Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Zubaydah.
Watch the results:
tinyurl.com/q2mrj4

This video is not especially violent and contains almost no profanity. However, it does deal with a controversial subject in a straight-forward and descriptive manner - Use Your Own Judgment in Viewing.

“Controversial”?
Yes, ever since our post-9/11 leaders and media mouths encouraged the policy of “by any means” to obtain “actionable intel”, we were told secret torture resulted in “credible” confessions. Anyone who has read it knows the 9/11 Commission Report cites 25% of its intel on exactly the same secret (unrecorded, unverified) interrogations. Yes, everyone agrees, waterboarding torture is highly controversial, along with all the other torture mechanisms not investigated by Guy. It will be interesting to see if he further questions any other techniques enough to test them out.

You say “straight-forward” and “descriptive manner”?
For the reporter, YES. His yoga instructor even helped ‘prepare’ him for his 15 second challenge.
For the audience however, NO WAY.
The Guy was NOT beaten, humiliated, pissed on, dragged by his hair, deprived of sleep, forced to listen to ear-deafening music, sexually violated, electrically shocked or led to believe his wife or daughter or son would be raped and tortured the same until the hooded interrogators finally heard the truth they were after. Plus, it was a one time stunt with a safety measure, making it far from reality.

TainanCowboy, from one American veteran to another (we might be the only two active on f.com), do you think torture induced confessions (“enhanced interrogation intel”) can be considered credible, reliable, worthy of trust in any way?

bump for viewing and comments.

I don’t get it. Why are you bringing this up again now? Didn’t we thoroughly cover this subject a year or two ago? And isn’t this the same damned thing? Some cocky bastard thinks no problem, he can last for 15 seconds, but it turns out he can’t? He quits in seconds. Isn’t this all the exact same stuff we discussed before?

I think TC is fishing, but the hook is a bit too big and obvious.

Almost, but TC has apparently found a new use/term for it. He’s recently started referring to waterboarding as Serious Mountaineering Training. :astonished:

Actually, there is something new and amusing regarding waterboarding in today’s news.

Apparently a former Bush speech writer wrote a book in which he explains how the Catholic church would approve of waterboarding. Seriously.

nytimes.com/2010/02/27/us/27beliefs.html :roflmao:

But then again, the Catholic church approved of the Crusades and it permitted blatant sexual abuse within its ranks for decades, if not centuries, so I can see how they might not be offended by a little simulated drowning. So, I’m not quite sure what his argument proves.

MT -
I was not aware that an actual demonstration of this technique had previously been posted here on Forumosa.com.
As you obviously are privy to such a post, would you please be so kind as to provide the link and I will review it for similarities to this video.
If it proves to be overwhelmingly the same I will either request this thread moved to the previously posted thread or it moved to this thread.

Got Link?

The answer to your rather self-serving questions remain to be seen with your providing the above asked for link.

No real comments on the technique presented?

In your opinion, does this qualify as torture?

In another thread presented a long list of information gained, including numerous bombing and murder plans, by selective use of this method.
Are we to assume (heh heh heh) that you would rather the terrorists had been able to carry out their plans for death, mayhem and destruction?

I remember it. Its not only similar, its the exact same video. I thought it was YOU who posted it back then, too, TC.
Is it torture? Of course not, its nothing more than youthful hi jinks. But you already knew than too, TC.
Your bait stinks.

I find it hard to fathom that “evoking an existing fear” cannot be universally accepted as torture. It boggles the mind that some still hold on to a narrow definition of torture as only within the realm of the physical.
That said, while I think mental and physical torture are inherently evil, I can see that in certain instances they might be necessary. Whether or not such measures can extract any utile actionable information is highly questionable.
“If you fucking beat this prick long enough, he’ll tell you he started the goddamn Chicago fire, now that don’t necessarily make it fucking so!” -----Nice Guy Eddie
As as aside, I wonder how long Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Zubaydah lasted?

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]No real comments on the technique presented?

In your opinion, does this qualify as torture?[/quote]
Not just a little weak.

Maybe you just think “Yes”?
Think this Guy under most favorable conditions testing torture wouldn’t confess to anything for air?

He posted a video with some radio show host on the receiving end. Not the exact same video - needs to be said because acute pedanticitis is rampant on these boards and often derails discussions, unless of course he has actually posted the PlayBoy one somewhere else and I have missed it, in which case I humbly expose my soft, tender belly to you as a sign of submission - but certainly incredibly similar in content : Journo talks about how they can take it, weren’t expecting it to be so bad etc. then gives up within seconds of the Facilitated Memory Recall Procedure commencing.

[forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.ph … 81#p997181](Conservative Talk Show Host Gets Waterboarded

[quote]The event:

youtube.com/watch?feature=pl … Ukj9pjx3H0

I’m not familiar with Mancow. The fact that he volunteers for this and emerges afterward with no problems shows whether this is actually “torture” or not. Actual real torture results in permanent physical and mental injury. This does not meet that criteria. It works by way of a natural reflex. Unpleasant and frightening it undoubtedly is.
But the question remains - Does this work in gaining usable information when dealing with terrorists?
The answer has been shown to be…Yes.[/quote]

You ask [quote]No real comments on the technique presented?[/quote]
Well, we already know what you think, as presented in the above link.

Kahana -
Thanks for that link. I had forgotten about that post.
IMO, it presents a “similar” but different example of the waterboarding. Thats my opinion.

If I remember correctly the person in the other video, “Mancow”, is a shock-jock type radio DJ. He did this for, as I noted, publicity reasons.

I apologize, but I find parts of your post rather hard to read - not sure who you are referring to about posting something “elsewhere” and all that - so keep your belly covered.

I think that later in that thread, or perhaps another thread as there have been several covering various aspects of this topic, I gave further reasons as to why I am opposed to the use of torture in the interrogation process.
It harms, psychologically, the “doer” as well as the “recipient.”
Also the quality of intel received is usually severely suspect. this means it is piecemeal at best and requires much time and labor in substantiation.

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]…I am opposed to the use of torture in the interrogation process.
It harms, psychologically, the “doer” as well as the “recipient.”
Also the quality of intel received is usually severely suspect.[/quote]
I for one didn’t know your position on ‘approved torture’.
Your support of the krauthammer made it very difficult, hence the repeated queries.

But you’ve answered my question - and apparently we agree - that ‘intel’ gleaned from torture is not worthy of trust.

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]Kahana -
Thanks for that link. I had forgotten about that post. . . . I apologize. . . . [/quote]

Don’t worry about it. No problem. I/we understand. Memory loss is a perfectly normal part of getting old.

:wink:

By the way, didn’t Sean Hannity promise to let himself be waterboarded? Googling, googling…

Ah yes, here it is:

Sean Hannity volunteers to be waterboarded, Olbermann offers $1000 per second

Has that happened yet? Googling, googling…

waterboardseanhannity.net/20 … idget.html

Christopher Hitchens, who I used to respect a lot more for his anti-establishment views (including some anti-extremist liberal views), until he began bashing some liberal causes unfairly (like Dennis Miller), did the waterboarding thing for Vanity Fair and came out with the same results.

Two Tongues -
Thanks for posting this demonstration. It again highlights the technique and what it involves.
On another thread I posted the results of KSM interrogation. It was quite substantial.
Rather than post that list again, here is a link to an article which details what information was obtained from KSM.

'Cracking KSM

For the purposes of informed discussion, we should remember the time-line on waterboarding al Queda members.
It was only used on 3 senior level members. In addition, waterboarding has not been used since 2003

A relevant article:

Only Three Have Been Waterboarded by CIA

[i]"The most effective use of waterboarding, according to current and former CIA officials, was in breaking Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, known as KSM, who subsequently confessed to a number of ongoing plots against the United States.

A senior CIA official said KSM later admitted it was only because of the waterboarding that he talked.

Ultimately, KSM took responsibility for the 9/ll attacks and virtually all other al Qaeda terror strikes, including the beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl.

“KSM lasted the longest under waterboarding, about a minute and a half, but once he broke, it never had to be used again,” said a former CIA official familiar with KSM’s case."[/i]

[quote] KSM masterminded the 9/11 massacre (2,976 dead, 7,356 wounded). He also, he said, “decapitated with my blessed right hand the head of the American Jew, Daniel Pearl, in the City of Karachi, Pakistan.” KSM financed the February 1993 Twin Towers bombing (six dead, 1,040 injured). According to the March 16, 2007, Wall Street Journal, KSM admitted he was “directly in charge” of “managing and following up on the Cell for the Production of Biological Weapons, such as anthrax and others, and following up on Dirty Bomb Operations on American Soil.”

“Thus, my eyes stayed as dry as the Sahara upon learning that American counterterrorists had dampened KSM’s nostrils 183 times. I prefer to cry for the 2,976 individuals whom KSM, Abu Zubaydah, and their colleagues slaughtered on 9/11. Of the 2,752 they killed at the World Trade Center, 1,125 (41 percent) were literally vaporized. These victims’ loved ones do not have so much as bone fragments to bury, nor place flowers upon, nor shed tears over.”[/quote]

Ever seen the Daniel Pearl decapitation video?
KSM admits he was the one with the knife.

Just to keep things in perspective.

Let’s get TC to show us how it’s done. I’ll pour.

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]

Just to keep things in perspective.[/quote]

This statement has at least 2 problems that I can see.

  1. KSM himself has never made this statement rather a “senior CIA official”, who may or may not be telling the truth. In fact, as this “official” is not named, the official may or may not even exist. And clearly the CIA, who had some hand in this waterboarding and others, have reason to make this claim even if it is entirely untrue - I mean, you don’t think the CIA might lie sometimes, do you???

  2. There is no way to verify the truthfulness of the statement. Even if the CIA officer exists, and even if he did say that, and even if KSM did say that, there is a logical problem here - how could KSM know that other methods of interrogation or persuasion would not also have worked? Maybe 100 methods were tried and failed, and maybe 100 other were never tried. Just because waterboarding worked (in this scenario) does not mean that other means would also not have worked - just because a stand-up, totally-truthful guy like KSM guy said it.

On the whole, these quotes you’ve cited really prove nothing. Get us the name of the officers, verify they actually know what was done to KSM and what was said, and even then, there could be 100 other ways he would have revealed the information.

In fact, do we even know if the “confessions” are true? Did he kill Pearl really?

RE: KSM, it has been announced that the current Administration has changed their collective minds as to trying KSM in a civilian court.
He is now to be tried in a Military Tribunal.

Interesting to see the testimony that will be presented.