A friend went to a wedding for a coworker and gave 2800 as a hongbao. I thought this was too much for one person. What is the going rate for a hongbao nowadays for a wedding for a co worker. Is it 1200 nt, or 2000 nt or 2200 or 2800 is correct for one person attending?
Back in 1999 it was 1200 nt/person as I remember.
Even in 1999 that was far too low.
Even in 1999 that was far too low.[/quote]
You callin me cheap??? (well I am 
)
It depends on a lot of things, but the quick answer is that I’ve recently heard around $2000 is common. If you’re rich or generous you’re free to give more, of course, and if you’re a poor student and the venue is not particularly pricey, perhaps give $1600. Certainly never less than that.
IMO.
Salaries of office staff have remained relatively flat for years. That said, most Westerners make more than the people in the surrounding cubicles. So, NT$1200 in 1999 and NT$1600 now sound OK. (NT$800-1000 in 1989, BTW)
As a “section manager” I should give more ($2000), and if it’s my staff, even more ($3600+).
You can not go and give a token NT$1000 or $1200.
Or if you don’t like the person and don’t want to deal with them again, ignore the whole thing.
I love the people sitting at the front recording who have what. It’s so shockingly mercenary for me coming from the West, kind of like insisting that everyone leave the price tags on their gifts.
It’s also so that the wedding family has a record of what their guests gave so that they can give more when their guests (or their children) get married.
It’s also so that the wedding family has a record of what their guests gave so that they can give more when their guests (or their children) get married.[/quote]
Doesn’t that miss the whole point of giving though? If giving is about not giving less than has already been given to you, or about one-upping someone else, then it’s kind of a heartless activity, isn’t it? Whatever happened to it being the thought that counts? If I give someone a gift, I give it to him or her because I think he or she would like it, not because I’m checking it off against a big ledger. Sometimes, that means I pay more, sometimes less, but whatever. I don’t really care. I just want someone to like the gift.
By making it money, and by having a socially acceptable (ie. expected) amount, it takes any and all personal commitment out of the process completely. One can robotically hand over exactly what everyone else does.
This is just one of the aspects of this culture that I find really, really ugly, and it makes me realise how as much as I claim otherwise, I am deeply embedded in the Judeo-Christian tradition of the West.
But it does make it nice to walk away from the wedding reception with a bit of a profit as opposed to ending up $20,000US in debt.
Sure, though it amounts to the same thing. If you spend a lot on a wedding, you’re not going to make a “profit” either way. Whether that “profit” is in cash or objects, is not the issue really.
No, it really isn’t the issue, but it was a nice surprise. 
Is this where we say YJDUTC?
[quote=“JMcNeill”]No, it really isn’t the issue, but it was a nice surprise.
Is this where we say YJDUTC?[/quote]
You just don’t understand Taiwanese culture?
I’d be the first to put my hand up for that one. The longer I’m here, the less I understand the place.
[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”][quote=“JMcNeill”]No, it really isn’t the issue, but it was a nice surprise.
Is this where we say YJDUTC?[/quote]
You just don’t understand Taiwanese culture?
I’d be the first to put my hand up for that one. The longer I’m here, the less I understand the place.[/quote]
That’s because you are using logic, my dear.
Logic is an imported word. Logic is a cultural constraint.
And on the recording issue, I’d say I feel better as otherwise I would be afraid that my contribution would be overlooked/misplaced/vanished.
[quote=“Icon”][quote=“GuyInTaiwan”][quote=“JMcNeill”]No, it really isn’t the issue, but it was a nice surprise.
Is this where we say YJDUTC?[/quote]
You just don’t understand Taiwanese culture?
I’d be the first to put my hand up for that one. The longer I’m here, the less I understand the place.[/quote]
That’s because you are using logic, my dear.
Logic is an imported word. Logic is a cultural constraint.[/quote]
Often, it is a matter of logic. At other times, it makes me realise how once you scratch away the superficialities of modern life, the fundamentals of births, deaths and marriages, really show how different some cultures can be. What happens at a wedding speaks volumes about a cultural world view. I can see it, and understand it, but I’ll never really understand it.
Maybe for you. For me, it makes me feel really uncomfortable if I think about it. I go with the flow, because it’s kind of “whatever” in this case. There are other cases where I don’t/won’t go with the flow.
[quote]Often, it is a matter of logic. At other times, it makes me realise [color=#0000FF]how once you scratch away the superficialities of modern life[/color], the fundamentals of births, deaths and marriages,[color=#0000FF] really show how different some cultures can be[/color]. What happens at a wedding speaks volumes about a cultural world view. I can see it, and understand it, but I’ll never really understand it.
[/quote]
Absolutely agree with you. I cannot understand where they are coming from, or why. I can appreciate it, observe it, analyse it… and I don’t get it. But it also happens to me with some issues about my own culture. Customs and mores…
Sometimes we say “it’s illogical” because it doesn’t meet our expectations. But it is not logical to expect what would be normal in our own enviroment. That is I tell myself here they use a different “logic”. I would dare to say that what is natural in one place is strange in another, yes, but then there are things you just can’t explain away so easily. Sigh
[quote]Maybe for you. For me, it makes me feel really uncomfortable if I think about it. I go with the flow, because it’s kind of “whatever” in this case. There are other cases where I don’t/won’t go with the flow.
[/quote]
Yep, I see your point. It makes me feel bad because there are other relationships: friendship, enjoyment, etc. which should supersede these material issues. Alas, money rules even in matters of the heart. I console myself with my own practical explanation… or avoid weddings like the plague. Lately, it’s been more of the last one -I tell them every wedding I go to ends up in divorce. 
$444 in a recycled envelope if you aren’t real keen on them.
See, it’s tricky if there are two of you. Then, $2200 would be rude, because you end up giving them 4400.
So 444(4) makes more sense, because they end up getting 888(8) when you add the two together. But then, maybe they don’t add them together and then you’re the cheapskate death-wisher.
[quote=“Icon”][quote]Often, it is a matter of logic. At other times, it makes me realise [color=#0000FF]how once you scratch away the superficialities of modern life[/color], the fundamentals of births, deaths and marriages,[color=#0000FF] really show how different some cultures can be[/color]. What happens at a wedding speaks volumes about a cultural world view. I can see it, and understand it, but I’ll never really understand it.
[/quote]
Absolutely agree with you. I cannot understand where they are coming from, or why. I can appreciate it, observe it, analyse it… and I don’t get it. But it also happens to me with some issues about my own culture. Customs and mores…
Sometimes we say “it’s illogical” because it doesn’t meet our expectations. But it is not logical to expect what would be normal in our own enviroment. That is I tell myself here they use a different “logic”. I would dare to say that what is natural in one place is strange in another, yes, but then there are things you just can’t explain away so easily. Sigh[/quote]
Sure. There are some things (such as letting people get out of an elevator or train first before trying to get in) that are a matter of logic.
The trouble becomes just working out which fall into that category. There is probably a social root to most rituals or activities, though they’ve often lost their meaning. To go right off topic, the whole Christmas (or other foreign festival) thing here is a little odd. Much of the Christmas imagery and so on doesn’t make much sense to us in the West, but the whole thing is totally de-contextualised. I can’t even begin to understand where the Christmas thing is coming from here, other than 1) trying to make more money or 2) people trying to be cool/modern/Western. Still odd.
[quote][quote]Maybe for you. For me, it makes me feel really uncomfortable if I think about it. I go with the flow, because it’s kind of “whatever” in this case. There are other cases where I don’t/won’t go with the flow.
[/quote]
Yep, I see your point. It makes me feel bad because there are other relationships: friendship, enjoyment, etc. which should supersede these material issues. Alas, money rules even in matters of the heart. I console myself with my own practical explanation… or avoid weddings like the plague. Lately, it’s been more of the last one -I tell them every wedding I go to ends up in divorce. [/quote]
Haha. Nice one.
I guess maybe for Taiwanese culture, the material issues can’t be removed from weddings, perhaps because they’re not that far into “prosperity”. I don’t know. It strikes me that an obsession with the material is somewhat indicative of that. I see that with my own family. Much of what my mother does and thinks is incredibly materialistic, and I’m sure that’s a response to her poor upbringing. My father is not burdened by that kind of reaction to everything, and he grew up in the middle class.
It’s a cultural thing. Oft repeated but there you go. To break out of your local culture is very very difficult (try walking around with a beard and a robe in the US and see what happens).
Money is more openly dealt with and exchanged in Taiwan, it’s not seen as vulgar. As another poster said it’s also to make sure you know who to give money back to in future. If it works well the couple gets some money to help them setup. Of course that’s not always the case and sometimes it simply goes to the brides parents. Not all weddings make money of course.
As for weddings in Asia Taiwanese wouldn’t stand out in anyway beyond the others and are not always focused on the money.
It’s really a lot of money for some families considering some have been paying out for decades. It’s hard to break out of a system where you’d be a cheapskate if you didn’t give money and if you do give money you’d certainly hope your family could get something back for all the years of giving it out.
Western weddings also have quite a monetary thing going on now, what with wedding lists and I heard giving cash is increasingly popular.
At least when we got married we didn’t incur any debt.
I agree the element of fun is missing although Taiwanese, a lot of it is fairly perfunctionary and more eating than talking, I miss the western dance afterwards, they do have fun stuff they do before and after with their peer group of guy and girl friends, but for westerners we don’t get a chance to do that unfortunately.
Yes I agree setting up a table and counting out the red envelopes the second it leaves your hands is a bit crass and hard to digest for us western educated peoples. However, Icon has a point too. YOu want your contribution to be duly noted by two witnesses. And thats why there is a “going rate”’, a rough guide for us to abide by. The wedding is not a fun thing. Its an institutional thing. ONe should try to enjoy it as much as our money paid allows, but its an institutional event. I hate going to weddings in Taiwan because I hate the ransom (red envelope giving) paying. I tried to avoid whenever possible, but in most cases was not able to. Even if you dont go, there is a going rate for that too , did you know??
Back in 1999, last I was on the island, I understand the going rate for non appearance at a wedding was 600nt. And 1200nt minimum per person if you do go.
Hope this helps.
OH , and its not too cool either the custom of setting up a store where one could go and buy the groom/bride a gift from a preselected list. I think thats crass too.