I am wondering, which one is better and which one is useful? Or none of them?
I personally like “bo po mo fo” more. I’ve been teaching chinese for 4 years, before i was strongely suggest my students to learn “bo po mo fo”, but recently, i talked with a friend, i found, why not Pin Yin, as long as you can read it right. So now i teach both “zhu yin” and “pin yin”. But back to the point, i still think zhu yin is the best way to learn chinese since it’s the tranditional way to learn chinese.
Zhuyin and Pinyin are functionally equivalent. Each has its advantages:
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It’s usually easier for foreigners to type and write Pinyin, as it uses the western alphabet we’re familiar with. It’s also more convenient for us to look things up in a dictionary, although when you know Zhuyin well, it’s not a major problem (apart from having to sing the “bopomofo song” everytime I need to get past “le”…!)
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Zhuyin is helpful in Taiwan as you can usually get people to write down correct (more or less!) pronunciations using it, while they would have no clue how to Romanize something in most cases. Even when people can’t produce the sounds accurately, most are aware of what the Zhuyin representation should be.
I say – hey, why not learn both? If you’re looking at a language where you’re going to have to memorize like 3,000 characters anyway, 50 or so more won’t make that much difference, right??
Terry
I agree with Terry. You should definitely consider learning both. Another advantage of Zhuyin is that there are a lot of reading materials annotated with Zhuyin that can be very helpful for beginners. It will also help you avoid looking up characters by radical in the dictionary, which I think is an enormous waste of time.
Just ignore your teacher if she tells you that there is something inherently more accurate about representing Mandarin sounds with Zhuyin. This is simply a linguistic superstition.
quote:Exactly right. When I first arrived on this fair isle, I lived in Chiayi and had just a smattering of Chinese. One person used the expression "Ma ma fu fu" with me, and I was unsure of myself, not quite trusting my ears. I asked her what "fu" she was talking about, and she said "Lao fu de fu" My mind still drew a blank, but then she traced out the zhuyin on my palm, and said he + wu = "fu". I thought it was hysterical. Other words that I remember having to have spelled out for me: the surname Zhang (Chang) which I always heard pronounced as "zang" (sounds like dirty), and the word for cold - "Leng" which was often pronounced "neng". Thank God for zhuyin fu hao, or I would have learned country bumpkin Mandarin! Still, there is nothing intrinsically superior about zhuyin except for the fact that people here know it. If they understood hanyu pinyin, it would be just as easy, as long as one is able to get over one's native language bias when negotiating new sounds from an old alphabet.
Originally posted by ironlady: Zhuyin is helpful in Taiwan as you can usually get people to write down correct (more or less!) pronunciations using it, while they would have no clue how to Romanize something in most cases. Even when people can't produce the sounds accurately, most are aware of what the Zhuyin representation should be.
It’s the best if you can learn both Zhu yin and Pin Yin, but what if you only wanna spend time on one of them!?! (some might be confused if they study them both at the same time)
Sure, that’s much easier for westner to learn the pin yin, but in the other hand, you will miss the chance to read the “zhu yin” materials which has no pin yin on it. I personaly think this is a pity. or maybe we should have “pin yin” materials more.
About ma ma fu fu (supposed to be ma ma hu hu) and neng (supposed to be leng), well, you should forgive people who has Taiwanese accent. They used to speak tai yu before, and they’re not a “english teacher”, so don’t judge them too much…But that’s why the “chinese school” exist for, isn’t it!? Then you can tell what’s different from the teacher who is trained and not trained.
Maybe that is why it took me a little while to realise that shen me (what!) is said as “si ma” both here and in Shanghai. Teach them to speak “right” - don’t bother to tell them what is said in the steets.
quote:
Originally posted by rian: Teach them to speak "right" - don't bother to tell them what is said in the steets.
Right! That’s one of the few opportunities where a foreigner can “strike back”. A game I do enjoy sometimes: “What was the name of your Guo Fu?” Three syllables can be hard to pronounce…
Olaf
zhu yin is better in my opinion,thought it’s hard to learn at first.but as you master this system,you can see how d=fats your chinese will improve?why?because you learn by listening!
if you still think it very hard,then you can think about chinese and english are two different language,there must be some vowels that pin yin can’t pronounse!
Originally posted by R.T:
quote[quote]if you still think it very hard,then you can think about chinese and english are two different language,there must be some vowels that pin yin can't pronounse![/quote] R.T., didn't you pay [i]any[/i] attention to the other thread -- which [i]you[/i] started -- on this? [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] [url=http://oriented.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=40&t=000025]http://oriented.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=40&t=000025[/url]
I can’t believe this is being argued again.
Taiwanese use Zhuyin and their pronounciation is derided by mainlanders … Mainlanders use Pinyin and their pronounciation is derided by Taiwanese. Obviously both systems are wrong and pictures of animals are the true path to enlightenment.
Using any other system you’ll sound strange, never amount to anything and no-one will understand you (or love you)!
Let each person choose their own path but remember that if you aren’t using pictures of animals then you are WRONG WRONG WRONG and STUPID STUPID STUPID!!!
P.S. I prefer Zhuyin Fuhao for most purposes but use Pinyin if there is a computer involved.
The point is, they’re functionally equivalent. You can use Wade-Giles if you want, as long as you use it consistently and correctly. It will represent the full range of Chinese sounds as well as any other system.
Just as “the love of money”, not “money”, is the root of all evil, “the misuse of Romanization”, not “Romanization” itself, is the root of all phonetic problems. You need to consider your own needs and who you will want to work with you using your phonetic system (or pictures of animals). If the person in question is artistically inclined, it’s animal pix. If they’re Taiwanese, it’s probably Zhuyin. If it’s anyone else, most likely the international standard of Hanyu Pinyin is the way to go.
Terry
No, the root of all evil is found in systems which under utilise animal pictures. Pinyin and Zhuyin are the main offenders here … not that Wade Giles is any better.
Don’t believe IronLady when she says that any system will work if you are prepared to take the time to study and apply it properly. This is obviously a thinly veiled attempt to lead you away from the path of rapid development and perfect pronounciation. Actual study and hard work has nothing to do with your progress, it is all about using pictures of animals.
If your inferior school doesn’t have animal pictures then you’ll always be the butt of rude jokes made at the expense of your rather hilarious pronounciation.
Hey, I resent the implication that I’m telling people to actually study and work hard. My actual intention was that they have a simple “second language implant” down at the local clinic. Just be sure they don’t put in one of the memory sticks full of scooter slogans by mistake.
Obviously the Romanization memory sticks in widespread use here were manufactured in pre-ISO9001 factories…
Terry
Did you folks know that with a mere 2 hour investment you can learn
the Korean alphabet too, which gives you a great step up in guessing
the Chinese characters that are now written in Korean on road signs
there. This is especially easy if one knows more than one Chinese
dialect.
You also get some views into ancient sounds, e.g., “quality” [pin3]
is [pim] in Korea, that final m was not preserved in any Chinese
dialect.
I would like to declare here that my job in my homeland, Britain, is teaching Chinese.
I learned Chinese through Hanyu pinyin, and I believe that it did all good and no harm to my Chinese pronunciation. However, I must say that zhuyin fuhao have two advantages. One is that they are more suitable for writing vertically, and therefore for annotating Chinese when it is written in columns instead of lines. Secondly, for a foreigner learning Chinese, zhuyin fuhao are harder, which is a good thing, because when you have Chinese characters with pinyin alongside, you tend to be lazy and read the pinyin. On the other hand, because zhuyin fuhao are harder to read for a foreigner, when you have Chinese characters with zhuyin fuhao alongside, you will be more inclined to look at the Chinese characters, and therefore to remember them. Therefore I agree with the other people who recommend learning both Hanyu pinyin and zhuyin fuhao.
Um, gosh, Dan…
I think there are still final ‘m’ sounds in Taiwanese…
cf. examples in Maryknoll textbook vol 1. p 12…
but I agree, it’s neat to learn the ‘sister’ or ‘cousin’ languages to get another perspective!
Terry
Haha Dan. To be even more anal “pin3” (quality) is actually “pum” in Korean, as in 식품 -食品-shik pum.
But I agree it’s definitely worth the 2 hour investment!
Getting back on topic I think they’re both fine, except pinyin when representing the ㄩ sound – is “woman” nyu, nuu, or what?
Standard Pinyin uses the u-with-an-umlaut (two dots over it). Usually the “nyu/nuu/nv” problem only comes up with typing on the Net or inputting text.
Terry
So yeah, I was thinking of making this thread to see what other opinions are on the issue.
As a foreigner who speaks English, I find that Hanyu-Pinyin is the fastest and most effective way for my brain to remember the correct pronunciation of every Chinese character I come across.
When I tell this to Taiwanese people, of course they look at me with complete bewilderment. “Oh, but how do you write the tones?” Now don’t get me wrong, I understand why any form of Pinyin is completely useless to Taiwanese people who learn Chinese through their native “zhuyin fuhao” alphabet.
However, my beef is that they seem to refuse to stick with the only internationally recognized romanization of Chinese, that is Hanyu Pinyin. I mean, walk around any city in Taiwan, you are bound to see three different English transliterations for the same name. It is enough to confuse the heck out of you if you are foreign. I mean, for a country that is so desperately trying to learn English, and become part of the developed world, you think they would make it more convenient for Westerners either visiting or living in Taiwan and adopt the romanization system that is known throughout the world? Maybe? Throw me a bone here. . .
My theory is that they are fiercely patriotic here, and they will use any method they can to differentiate themselves from the Mainland. And Hanyu-Pinyin came from the Mainland, “Oh no! We can’t use it because those ** China people use it!”
But I’ve only lived here for three months. What do I know?
Now since this is the Learning Chinese section, I should make this related to learning Chinese somehow. I admit to TRYING (and failing) to learn the “Zhuyin Fuhao” in order to learn how to pronounce Chinese the “proper” way. But in the end what happened is I had to constantly check and re-check if I was pronouncing the Zhuyin correctly, and it all seemed like an utter waste of time when my end goal was, (and still is) to be able to read the “Hanzi” with the correct pronunciation. I think hanyu pinyin, with all of the proper tone markers and tremas gives any English speaker all the ammo he or she needs when trying to pronounce the actual Chinese correctly. Granted, my vocabulary is pretty small but of the words I do know, I learned through Hanyu, NOT Zhuyin. And to add icing to the cake, I’ve been told my pronunciation is correct by natives when I use the correct pinyin.
So, who here thinks learning Zhuyin is a waste of time? Also, I’m sure there are others who actually know Zhuyin, has it helped you? Am I just being an arrogant ****? I fully accept this as a possibility 