Which Visa: APRC, JFRV or Citizenship

Legal Visa & Residency
1

As many of you know I’ve been gathering my necessary documents and I’m on the cusp of applying for ROC naturalization. However, lately I’ve been having second thoughts.
To be clear, yes, I still want to become a Taiwanese citizen, but I’m wondering at the wisdom of doing it right now.

I’m a little worried about deferring it to a later date (3 years if I take a JFRV or APRC) as who knows what can change in three years. The KMT could make changes to the requirements, make it harder or there could be unforeseen difficulties from political change we can’t foresee right now. For that matter, it could become easier, no way of telling really. But it is an issue that is prompting me to just go ahead and do it now while I don’t have any problems.

On the other hand, I need to think of my life here and how best to qualify myself on the road ahead. On an APRC or JFRV I would still be a foreigner and hence able to study for an MBA or other MA degree (with free Chinese classes) over the next two to three years. After which I could still apply for citizenship (unless there have been major changes in legislation which we cannot foresee at present).
However, as a Taiwanese citizen I would have to sit the same entrance examinations, in Chinese, as any other Taiwanese. Which my level of Chinese wouldn’t allow. I’m lower intermediate conversational level, which is all good for chatting with the relatives, colleagues etc, but not much help with anything academic or particularly involved… Also, as a Taiwanese citizen I would have to pay for my own studies (and Chinese classes as my level isn’t good enough IMVHO).

IMO I have at least two years to go to get to a fluent-ish level.
I currently have a four year BA, but I would like to do an MA in Linguistics or Translation in the future. Also, I’d like nothing more than to get out of the Bushiban racket, but as a Taiwanese (no Taiwanese teaching certificate, and my Chinese isn’t good enough to study at an institution like NUTN ).
As a foreigner I could still teach at a private (non-state) elementary, junior high or senior high school.

I guess what I’m saying is that I have everything ready to apply for ROC naturalization, but looking to the future, I’m at a crossroads and not sure if it’s the best thing to do right now. I was hoping to illicit some advise or shared experience form other members on the board over the next week or so.

Any suggestions, ideas or thoughts on the subject would be welcome.

2

What? No opinions or thoughts? Aaaarrrrgggghhh! You guys are killing me.

The wife reckons I should just do the naturalization and be done with it. An American mate of mine reckons I should do the JFRV/APRC route and study first.
But it’s not the money for studies, so much as possible language problems regarding studies etc that have me thinking twice…

Was really hoping someone here would have two cents to add…

3

[quote=“bismarck”]Was really hoping someone here would have two cents to add…[/quote]Ok…Here’s my :2cents:. I recommend APRC. For myself, I want Taiwanese citizenship, but I’m not willing to give up my US citizenship in order to attain it. Part of it is based on principle. Why can a Taiwanese trot around the globe and collect passports without giving up their Taiwanese citizenship while we have to give up ours? Discriminatory and unfair! The other reason is that I have way too much to lose by giving up my US citizenship and no way to get it back later. So, therefore, I have opted for the APRC and I will wait until maybe someday the laws change and are less unfair and perhaps I can get Taiwanese citizenship without renouncing my US citizenship.

For you, I would recommend APRC or Citizenship, but not JFRV. With citizenship you have it all, but you have to relinquish your citizenship and all rights therein. Are you from a country where you can get your citizenship back later simply by asking for it? With an APRC you’re still a foreigner, but you are your own man and I feel it’s the closest thing to actually getting citizenship. The JFRV is based on your marriage. Your wife’s name appears on the back of your JFRV ARC as your sponsor and is only valid as long as you’re married. However, you could still apply for the APRC or citizenship later if your marriage were to end due to divorce or death.

4

I’m in total agreement with Mr Surfer.
Relinquishing your citizenship to a “country” that is nothing more than a pariah state of China, is a risky business. How many nations recognize Taiwan as a county? Burkino Faso and Belize?
JFRVs are tenuous too. Ya gotta hedge your bets. My sister, my role-model of stability was recently divorced. Married for twenty years, two daughters and suddenly kabooom. I would never wish that scenario upon anyone, but don’t bank your future on relationships. They are potentially brittle.
APRC is the way to go, mate. :2cents:

5

I’d go with what Messrs. Surfer and Presley said.

Relinguish your citizenship to become a citizen of a banana republic? No ways!

APRC/JFRV? Yes. Citizenship? NO!! Unless dual citizenship becomes an option.

6

I do so totally agree that its bogus to require an applicant for TW citizenship to relinquish all other citizenships. They dont require TW citizens to give up their TW citizenship when they get another passport. China does have this requirement but not Taiwan. So its patently unfair and unjust.

Those that meet the parameters for TW citizenship should be allowed to apply and receive it without prejudice to what other citizenship they may or may not hold. Outside of PRC citizenship due to the special “situation” that exists between PRC and ROC.

IF anything it can be fair to offer reciprocity on this matter. For example, the USA allows TW citizens to retain TW citizenship even upon receipt of US citizenship and therefore Taiwan should offer the same as a matter of fairness among “nations” (which Taiwan very much wants to be considered as).

The way to force the ROC to do so is to petition the US govt to not allow TW citizens to acquire US citizenship unless they renounce TW citizenship. NOw watch all the people of note in Taiwan demand the TW govt change the law to offer US citizens the right to retain their citizenship.

7

Hi Bismarck,

I’ve been reading your contributions with great interest in the naturalization thread because I’ve found myself at a crossroads recently as well. In my case, I wanted to get the APRC but couldn’t because certain documents were denied me by my estranged wife. On consideration though, I’ve been here for a very long time now and I feel I have nothing to lose by going for citizenship. I’ll also be rid of the requirement to have a cosignatory on my credit card and I’ll actually be able to register on Yahoo Auctions(!).

However, it seems to me that you are going through a ridiculous amount of difficulty with getting your citizenship and it’s natural that you’d be getting cold feet. To be honest with you, if I were in your position I would go for the APRC. As you’ve noted, you’ll be able to get scholarships to go to school (I’ve already done that) and still do the things you want to do without (much) restriction while also buying you the freedom that you need. At the same time, it doesn’t close any doors for you as you’ll still be able to apply for citizenship at a later date.

8

Bis, one should choose according to one’s best interests. In your case, I second all previous statements that APRC is the way to go.

I was thinking that probably I would not be able to study Chinese at a university if I becaome Taiwanese -I am dead sure they must have a rule against that, I imagine, knowing their logic. I dunno about MA with free Chinese lessons -AFAIK, those are the ICDF scholarships, for allied nations- but having an incentive ($$$) for continuing your studies here is an important matter.

OTOH, I wouldn’t study Englsih teaching here in Taiwan. After my experience listening in to a class in Taida, no less, and the contacts I’ve had with PHDs from Shida and other big universities, I’d rather not. Not even paid.

9

Thanks for all the awesome posts, guys (and gals? Icon is a lady, yeah?).

What you guys have been saying about the APRC is basically the thoughts that I’ve been having, and it’s great that they are being confirmed. I mean, I can always apply for naturalization later should I want to.

To be more clear, I have these two options to consider.

A. In Taiwan I’d like to do either an MA in Linguistics or an MA in History (especially interested in doing research regarding the Dutch period). I’d also like to spend at least another year, probably two studing at NCKU towards greater Chinese fluency. The Chinese naturalization test and discussions with the HHR people have given me pause as to how crap my Chinese is.
Obviously, getting into a program as a waiguo is easier, and the fees are deferred, but you have to get in first as most options (at NCKU especially) outside of the MBA program don’t have the same amount of funds to allocate towards foreign students.

B. If I decide to go the naturalization route, I obviously give up my SA citizenship. To get it back you have to go back to SA and apply for Resumption of citizenship, which is a given as it’s protected under the constitution as far as born Saffas are concerned. If you’re not a born Saffa you lose it forever. You also have to show that you’re back to stay, so you can’t come in for a four week holiday, fill in the papers and come back to Taiwan.
So, I was considering studying towards an MA through the University of SA (Not recognised in Taiwan because it’s a distance learning institution. Also, they are internationally recognised up to masters level, so it would be better to persue a PhD elsewhere.) and then to head back to SA in two or three years for doctoral studies and to resume SA citizenship.
That way I can get my citizenship back (then be a dual citizen) and return to Taiwan with a PhD from a foreign Uni, which as we all know is held in much higher esteem locally than doing it here…

But from what you guys are saying regarding APRCs and so on, I’m leaning toward that at the moment. I reckon I’ll go down to NCKU tomorrow morning and actually speak to someone in the Linguistics department and the History department and see what’s what.
That should give me a much clearer view of what to do.

Thanks for the views and advice. Keep it coming. :notworthy:

10

For all intents, the APRC gives you almost any right you could want here, except the right to vote. Sure, Sat TV will probably pop up and argue against this, but even he might whistle a different tune had the APRC been around at the time he applied for citizenship. :whistle: :wink:

11

What about credit cards, home loans, cell phone contracts and such? It still seems they’re not too keen on helping out in those areas, although I have no experience with that as I’ve always only had a work related ARC.

I was at NIA again today to change my address (which I’d forgotten to do a few months ago, and seeing as you only have 2 weeks to do it in I was fined NT$2000 :fume: ), the agent tried to palm the JFRV off on me again. I asked him for paper work (regulations etc) on the APRC and he gave me those. What he gave me still stipulates that to qualify you must prove with tax returns over the last three years that you earn more than double the minimum salary. This could be outdated, but I can’t do that for the last year as there were some irregularities with my tax at my second school. The issue is sorted now, but I’m still shafted as far as last year is concerned…
But he did give me a number to call to confirm the details regarding that…

At the moment the APRC is looking very tempting.

12

I was at the NIA yesterday.

Yes, you’ve got to go back if you change address or get a new passport.

Good news for me . . .

:discodance:
I got my APRC yesterday!
:discodance:

Now I can never leave.

13

[quote=“zender”]

:discodance:
I got my APRC yesterday!
:discodance: [/quote]
Great stuff! :banana: :yay:

14

No offense, bis, but I highly doubt that a bank or cc company is going to be any more likely to give you a loan or a card just because you have citizenship. Your ID card may say you are Taiwanese, but your face sure won’t. The foreigner/citizenship tactic is the one most commonly use to refuse foreigners, but when you get right down to it, the real reason is because we are largely seen as a risky investment. Building capital, equity and a good banking history will do lots more for you there than citizenship will, IMHO.

15

No offense but you are wrong. You are treated the same as any other Taiwanese.

OF course you wouldn’t know, not being a citizen of Taiwan an all. :2cents:

16

No offense but you are wrong. You are treated the same as any other Taiwanese.

OF course you wouldn’t know, not being a citizen of Taiwan an all. :2cents:[/quote]
You probably both have a good point in that it doesn’t help if you’re Taiwanese and you have a dismal financial record. Same as citizens in any country anywhere.

But I think a foreigner with 500 000 in the bank will still have a harder time than a citizen with 500 000 in the bank…

[quote=“zender”]I was at the NIA yesterday.

Yes, you’ve got to go back if you change address or get a new passport.

Good news for me . . .

:discodance:
I got my APRC yesterday!
:discodance:

Now I can never leave.[/quote]
Good for you, mate. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

17

i think it all depends on whether or not u can get by wth just having the APRC…it does solve some problems but as far as i am concerned it does not solve the problems that really affect me…oh another thing since most of the outside world has not seen an APRC more than often you will get stuck up at check in with the staff asking u stupid questions like sir we checked your passport and you do not have a re-entry visa for Taiwan, sir on the APRC it says that if you have been out of Taiwan for over 183 days then this APRC is not valid…

I mean it was so funny when this happened to me because I was standing at HK airport in April 2008 and the guy had the audacity to say that how can you prove that you have not out of Taiwan for more than 183 days this year…hello it is just April 2008!! even if I have been out of Taiwan from Jan 1st it is still less than 183 days…I asked the idiot to use his calculator and count the no of days from Jan 1st till April 12th!!! It took me 30 mins to convince him that all is okay,I felt like I had committed a fucking crime with people around staring at me like I was trying to get into Taiwan illegally!!! This happened not once but quite a few times and I realised that even the APRC is still not the solution…

like some of the others before me I too have applied for Taiwanese citizenship and will get my ID card next year…my work, my life everything is here and having an id card was the only way for me to go…

so it all depends…like they say one man’s food is another man’s poison!!

18

[quote=“speed_maniac”]I think it all depends on whether or not u can get by wth just having the APRC…it does solve some problems but as far as I am concerned it does not solve the problems that really affect me…oh another thing since most of the outside world has not seen an APRC more than often you will get stuck up at check in with the staff asking u stupid questions like sir we checked your passport and you do not have a re-entry visa for Taiwan, sir on the APRC it says that if you have been out of Taiwan for over 183 days then this APRC is not valid…

I mean it was so funny when this happened to me because I was standing at HK airport in April 2008 and the guy had the audacity to say that how can you prove that you have not out of Taiwan for more than 183 days this year…hello it is just April 2008!! even if I have been out of Taiwan from Jan 1st it is still less than 183 days…I asked the idiot to use his calculator and count the no of days from Jan 1st till April 12th!!! It took me 30 mins to convince him that all is okay,I felt like I had committed a fucking crime with people around staring at me like I was trying to get into Taiwan illegally!!! This happened not once but quite a few times and I realised that even the APRC is still not the solution…

like some of the others before me I too have applied for Taiwanese citizenship and will get my ID card next year…my work, my life everything is here and having an id card was the only way for me to go…

so it all depends…like they say one man’s food is another man’s poison!![/quote]
Excellent post. I had a situation this week that I’ll post about tomorrow. Bit late now. Made me see things differently.

19

[quote=“speed_maniac”] I realised that even the APRC is still not the solution…

like some of the others before me I too have applied for Taiwanese citizenship and will get my ID card next year…my work, my life everything is here and having an id card was the only way for me to go…

so it all depends…like they say one man’s food is another man’s poison!![/quote]

See an ID card really is worth it. :smiley: :smiley:

20

[quote=“Satellite TV”][quote=“speed_maniac”] I realised that even the APRC is still not the solution…

like some of the others before me I too have applied for Taiwanese citizenship and will get my ID card next year…my work, my life everything is here and having an id card was the only way for me to go…

so it all depends…like they say one man’s food is another man’s poison!![/quote]

See an ID card really is worth it. :smiley: :smiley:[/quote]

I am not arguing with that, however, my wife does not approve my surrendering my US citizenship to get it, so I am currently with the APRC. Don’t expect any problems though on my next trip which is in about two weeks.