why aren’t teachers already in country being considered for the new scheme? who is the primary recruiter? contact numbers?
Probably for the same reasons I am very hesitant to hire a teacher already in Taiwan. Too many bad teaching habits to break. The teaching results do not merit the high salary that “experienced” teachers demand, and too many prima donnas.
Of course, I am painting everybody with the same brush (which is wrong, I know. I consider a good number of teachers teaching here to be very good at what they do) but from my experience, teachers that I have hired in Taiwan have given me nothing but grief. Whereas new teachers are more than willing to listen and learn.
[quote=“Durins Bane”]Probably for the same reasons I am very hesitant to hire a teacher already in Taiwan. Too many bad teaching habits to break. The teaching results do not merit the high salary that “experienced” teachers demand, and too many prima donnas.
Of course, I am painting everybody with the same brush (which is wrong, I know. I consider a good number of teachers teaching here to be very good at what they do) but from my experience, teachers that I have hired in Taiwan have given me nothing but grief. Whereas new teachers are more than willing to listen and learn.[/quote]
But best of all, you can pay them a lot less! 
Well yes…it is all about money. An inexperienced teacher with the proper training can do the same job as an experienced teacher…and for a whole lot less money and headaches.
I hear ya D.B. FNG’s are the best 
FNGs…(snicker!)…
What’s an FNG?
Got me stumpted too! Flirting Naked Girls?
Fucking New Guy.
When I was back in the ‘Nam, FNGs meant fuckin’ new guys… (I’m pretty sure we meant “fuckin” as an adjective and not as a verb…) :?
Come on mate. How many bears have you had tonight?
Bears? That sounds kinda nasty. 
Whoo, maybe it was me who’d had one too many ‘beers’.
You sure about that?
Which would you rather go to for a dental op?
A less experienced newbie on a low salary with ‘proper’ training
or
a more experienced dentist with a bigger paycheck and a ‘reputation’?
Now let me see… that’s a difficult choice there. I know which I would choose for a dental op, car repair, computer repair, etc. I wouldn’t necessarily choose the second category for a teeth cleaning affair, but I definitely wouldn’t choose the first for a root canal. (And I know, I’ve had root canal work done by cowboys - ironically, perhaps they would be considered ‘experienced’)
True new teachers can and do give quality. True experienced can be a lot more trouble. But in general, experience DOES count a lot in teaching.
Kenneth
Yes, I am quite sure of what I said.
I do agree that experience counts a lot in teaching…it counts for a lot in most things. However, I won’t “buy” that experience at the expense of extra headaches or just too much money. Let’s face it, teaching ESL is not rocket science and if you can find a FNG with a personality of something other than a turd and who is willing to listen and learn; with good training that person can be just as good as as experienced teacher in a very short time.
I see Durins Bane’s point about FNG’s. You see, DB actually is an owner(one of them) and operator of a couple schools, so when he talks, it’s close to the horse’s mouth of how things really are.
DB and most Taiwanese owners want a decent engaging teacher that will cause the least amount of headaches and at a reasonable(some would say lowest) price. This is a business, plain and simple. It’s hard on the ego knowing that with all your experience that a fresh face can beat you out of a job, that you consider yourself overqualified for.
Honestly, I don’t like teaching English. For me, it is just a job that allows me to do a lot of other things in my life. I know I’m a complete hack at teaching English. I get by with my engaging charm and wit(or lack thereof). I met DB and can attest for him being an upstanding decent guy. I also know that I couldn’t really cut working for him. Unless your serious about teaching and some people are; this will be just a stage of your life.
Okami
[quote=“Durins Bane”]Yes, I am quite sure of what I said.
I do agree that experience counts a lot in teaching…it counts for a lot in most things. However, I won’t “buy” that experience at the expense of extra headaches or just too much money. Let’s face it, teaching ESL is not rocket science and if you can find a FNG with a personality of something other than a turd and who is willing to listen and learn; with good training that person can be just as good as as experienced teacher in a very short time.[/quote]
As an ex-prima donna English teacher, I’ve got to agree with Bane. Experience really doesn’t matter in Taiwan English, Inc. Besides, it is not like the students or parents will actually know their teacher is inexperienced or fresh off the boat. He’s not running an organ transplant business. Bane, like the government, wants a bunch of naive, untarnished suckers. He/they are the boss and that’s business.
What I don’t agree with is his likening of newbies to “FNGs” or “with the personality of something other than a turd” (well, what would be the next step up – pus? piss? a rock?). As for being a “decent” guy, (Okami’s quote) I seriously doubt Bane highly advertises to students (and their parents) that his school hires inexperienced teachers over those with experience. Thanks for reiterating what a filthy, lyin’ conjob of a business most of Taiwan English, Inc. is. I’ve worn jockstraps with more professional values.
[quote=“Durins Bane”]Yes, I am quite sure of what I said.
I do agree that experience counts a lot in teaching…it counts for a lot in most things. However, I won’t “buy” that experience at the expense of extra headaches or just too much money. Let’s face it, teaching ESL is not rocket science and if you can find a FNG with a personality of something other than a turd and who is willing to listen and learn; with good training that person can be just as good as as experienced teacher in a very short time.[/quote]
While I’m willing to admit ESL is not rocket science, neither is dentistry.
I would be interested in how you define the word ‘good’ visavis teaching.
Various definitions come to mind. However, I would say that ‘good’ could mean …
effective
enabling
good listener
good at grammar lessons
a body in the classroom
(one of a hundred more…)
I went through ‘good training’ and I still would say that wasn’t enough. it’s taken me years to develop my skills in teaching, though I would say that I was a ‘competent’ teacher after six months or so, I wouldn’t say i was a good teacher by even two or three years.
It’s clear we’re not going to agree, but I believe:
a good teacher is someone who
is familiar with a wide range of techniques
understands methods and philosophies behind them
is able to apply a range of approaches in class
has a good grasp of the mechanics of English (not just grammar0
is aware of the importance of professional development and has undertaken a fair amount
has a wide range of materials
is able to assess his students accurately (formally/informally), and provide lessons suitable to their levels and needs
is able to adapt, supplement, excise and create books/materials/lessons to suit the goals of his class.
is able to empathize with students
can create a positive lively learning environment in which progress is not just possible, but highly likely.
etc… those are the ones I could think of right now.
I wouldn’t say these skills can be completely taught in any course; though you may develop a considerable subset of them within a year.
So, while I agree that being too expensive can be a deficit in a buyer’s market, and you may not be getting value for money; putting experience in context may allow you to assess whether paying $500 for someone with no experience or $750 for someone with experience represents good value. I think only with individual cases can we decide the situation. I don’t think there’s a general rule here.
Don’t be fooled by the numbers, look at the product/service, and try to find the value that’s being created by the individual.
Kenneth
I think y’all(KenTaiwan98 and Flicka) haven’t spent enough time going through random interviews or watching random interviews lately. I’ve recently in the last 8 months have seen a lot of them. My school is hiring again and they are interviewing a lot of people. A large majority are failing miserably.
Now I know Durins bane wouldn’t mind hiring and paying for a professional. ImaniOU can get a job from the man. He runs a business though. He needs things to be accomplished efficiently with the least amount of headaches. He does a lot of his own books and has some interesting ideas. What he doesn’t need is inproperly trained/untrained long term foreigners without an education/EFL teaching or a linguistics degree who have a higher opinion of themselves than what is truly merited. Unlike you he has to deal with a number of foreign teachers. He will/has start profiling the teachers and coming to a conclusion about who are the best to hire with the least amount of headaches. Read, Influence, Psychology of Persuasion if you don’t believe me.
Flicka- Please explain the difference in an experienced teacher from an inexperienced teacher. I haven’t seen much of a difference. I’m curious as to what they are. Everyone who works in the EFL biz here knows its a conjob, but have you met, talked to, and seen DB’s schools and curriculum. I think you flamed a man, you know nothing about for the simple act of him giving his real life experience as an owner of a school. I think that neither proper nor fair.
KenTaiwan98- How many professional teachers do you know in Taiwan? I mean the type who actually works at it and wants to be a better teacher. I can say that the number is very small for me. I meet very few education/TEFL majors in Taiwan. ImaniOU comes the closest. When you’re dealing with something less than perfect you have to mold it into what you want. This is similiar to DB’s situation. He has to mold untrained teachers to his set of rules and guidelines. They have to follow his syllabus and plan as he lays it out to the parents. He can’t afford a guy who only sings songs and colors pictures with the class(well maybe for N1 and K1 kindergarten classes). Since he lacks a pool of truly well trained applicants he makes do with what he gets.
DB is very American. Hence his posts will come across as rude, arrogant, and sarcastic, much the same way I am in normal life.
Currently portraying myself as DB’s bitch though I’m not
Okami
I used to interview people here too, albeit in another field. A lot fail miserably in any interview setting. I know what a headache it is but that just comes with the territory.
I’d say since English teaching here is not rocket science, about four months to a year is enough time to pick up the act. (If the teacher isn’t a drunk, druggie, or in constant culture shock.)
Flamed? As someone who is also very American and the descendant of a line of fairly successful Taipans, I wholeheartedly support Bane in his capitalist endeavours in Taiwan. In fact, I said I agreed with him, for his reasons for hiring newbies as well as the fact that he is the boss and that he can hire and fire whoever he wants. My guess is he is absolutely right about the question posted in this discussion.
However, belittling newbies in Taiwan English, Inc. is pretty unprofessional, especially from someone who is higher-up in the business. I know enough about that from his posts for that. And last time I checked, schools want to boast they have experienced teachers, not newcomers, and common sense tells me that a school would never advertise they hire only newbies.