Why did ROC establish consulate general in Taipei if the KMT didn’t think Taiwan was part of Japan in the 1930s? (or at least the KMT of today seems to think so)
(edited to correct space-time continuum discrepancy)
How could Formosa not be a part of Japan at that time?
been watching Taiwanese TV from here… the KMT candidate for president(forgot her name, the skinny little woman) said that Taiwan, along with the rest of China, fought against the Japanese empire during World War Two. I thought I was hearing it wrong, but I asked my authentic Taiwanese friend who told me that was exactly what she said.
When the Chinese says WW2, I suspect most of them mean the opium wars and the boxer rebellion and how Japan stole Taiwan. Mixing everything into one giant mess is easier to restore past glory.
Japan stole Taiwan?
Yup, just slipped it into a back pocket and walked right outta the store.
been watching Taiwanese TV from here… the KMT candidate for president(forgot her name, the skinny little woman) said that Taiwan, along with the rest of China, fought against the Japanese empire during World War Two. I thought I was hearing it wrong, but I asked my authentic Taiwanese friend who told me that was exactly what she said.[/quote]
She’s not just stupid, she’s brainwashed AND stupid… and the one does not excuse the other.
[quote=“urodacus”]
She’s not just stupid, she’s brainwashed AND stupid… and the one does not excuse the other.[/quote]
stupid people do get elected and become presidents in many countries… including Taiwan. 
what does that say about people who cast their votes for these stupid and/or brainwashed candidates? 
Lots of misinformation going around.
China signed the Treaty of Shimenoseki in 1895 after losing a war to Japan. This treaty gave Taiwan, Penghu, and the Liaodong Peninsula (modern day Dalian) to the Japanese empire. Japan returned Liaodong to China under pressure from European powers, but Japan got to keep Taiwan – and that’s really the end of that story up until 1945, when Japan was defeated in WW2 and one condition of the Treaty of San Francisco included giving up Taiwan.
The KMT has had a swell of nationalism this year, as it marks the 70th anniversary of Japan’s surrender, and so they have desperately tried to connect the dots between what was then “Taiwan, Japan” and the war against Japan that was going on in China. They’ve latched onto a few anti-Japanese uprisings in Taiwan during its 50-year rule over the island and ethnic Taiwanese who fought on the battlefields for the ROC. But the truth is that most in Taiwan were simply subjects of the Empire of Japan. Some, like ex-President Lee Teng-hui, actually fought against Americans on the Japanese side. Write this all off as propaganda.
[quote=“Hokwongwei”]
The KMT has had a swell of nationalism this year, as it marks the 70th anniversary of Japan’s surrender, and so they have desperately tried to connect the dots between what was then “Taiwan, Japan” and the war against Japan that was going on in China. They’ve latched onto a few anti-Japanese uprisings in Taiwan during its 50-year rule over the island and ethnic Taiwanese who fought on the battlefields for the ROC. But the truth is that most in Taiwan were simply subjects of the Empire of Japan. Some, like ex-President Lee Teng-hui, actually fought against Americans on the Japanese side. Write this all off as propaganda.[/quote]
By the time of WW2, Taiwanese are only peacefully asking for equal treatment, freedom of speech, more representation and a larger degree of autonomy. The Japanese had already allowed 2 elections, although like Hong Kong’s elections, about half of the parliament members were appointed. So the “peaceful uprisings” were less “anti-Japanese” and more “pro-freedom.”
[quote=“Hokwongwei”]Lots of misinformation going around.
Write this all off as propaganda.[/quote]
Propaganda on both sides I would say, Taiwan independence supporters eulogize Japanese colonial rule and airbrush out the brutality, discrimination and exploitation. The other side plays up early Taiwanese resistance, and glosses over the fact that sections of Taiwan society were rather Nipponized by the 1930s and 40s, often for social and economic reasons.
[quote=“schwarzwald”][quote=“Hokwongwei”]Lots of misinformation going around.
Write this all off as propaganda.[/quote]
Propaganda on both sides I would say, Taiwan independence supporters eulogize Japanese colonial rule and airbrush out the brutality, discrimination and exploitation. The other side plays up early Taiwanese resistance, and glosses over the fact that sections of Taiwan society were rather Nipponized by the 1930s and 40s, often for social and economic reasons.[/quote]
I think that in itself is already a propaganda.
You will find less Taiwan independence supporters who eulogize the Japanese rule than those KMT/CCP supporters who eulogize the periods of Chinese (Koxinga–who was actually half Japanese–/Qing/KMT) rule.
That is because eulogizing another foreign power is contradictory to the idea of Independence.
TI supporters would only point to Japan by saying “Chinese claims to be our blood relatives, but in reality you did even worse than the Japanese.”
In fact, that’s exactly what LTH have been saying lately. He simple wants to put the KMT propaganda to an end, and at the same time pointed out that independence from any foreign power is the only way to go.
Except for those who thinks it’s safer to first establish the fact that Taiwan was indeed a USMG trusted territory, before really regain independence, no one is “pro-TI” but endorses returning Taiwan to another foreign power.
Are you accounting for the sizable portion of TI advocates who say, even today, “we were better under Japanese rule.”
Are you accounting for the sizable portion of TI advocates who say, even today, “we were better under Japanese rule.”[/quote]
They say that because the Japanese did do things better, but they are not saying that TI means we want Taiwan to be a part of Japan. See my post about
[quote]TI supporters would only point to Japan by saying “Chinese claims to be our blood relatives, but in reality you did even worse than the Japanese.”
[/quote]
Are you accounting for the sizable portion of TI advocates who say, even today, “we were better under Japanese rule.”[/quote]
Stating one colonial dictatorship was better than another isn’t exactly an endorsement, let alone ‘eulogizing’.
LTH failed to note that Taiwan’s relationship with Japan was inherently one of exploitation due to its status as a colony and can be attacked from that angle, but his take on history is at least bound by reality and facts.
Are you accounting for the sizable portion of TI advocates who say, even today, “we were better under Japanese rule.”[/quote]
Stating one colonial dictatorship was better than another isn’t exactly an endorsement, let alone ‘eulogizing’.
LTH failed to note that Taiwan’s relationship with Japan was inherently one of exploitation due to its status as a colony and can be attacked from that angle, but his take on history is at least bound by reality and facts.[/quote]
Except that TI supporters reject the addition of the word “colonial” to Japan’s rule over Taiwan, even though all the world, including Japan calls it that. I find it strange that the text book demonstrators who say they stand for human rights and democracy refuse to call Japan’s rule “colonial”.
[quote=“schwarzwald”]
Except that TI supporters reject the addition of the word “colonial” to Japan’s rule over Taiwan, even though all the world, including Japan calls it that. I find it strange that the text book demonstrators who say they stand for human rights and democracy refuse to call Japan’s rule “colonial”.[/quote]
I’m guessing that opinion is based on very poor translation of what actually happened in Chinese.
TI supporters are against the word 日據, which implies that Japan somehow occupied the island unjustly or illegally (Japanese stole Taiwan, as you would often hear). They ask for 日治, as the textbooks would often refer to Dutch and Spanish rule as 荷治 or 西治. Since Dutch, Spanish, Koxinga, Qing, Japanese, and the KMT are all colonials, it would seem fit to refer to their rules the same way.
If today we are going to called the Japanese rule 日據, then we should equally refer to the rest as 荷據, 西據, 東寧據, 清據, and 國民黨據.
The argument was never about whether or not the Japanese was a colonial force. It’s about not demeaning a particular colonial power and elevating another to be non-colonials. By the way, if the text is really about colonialism, then it should have been 日本殖民時期, and we should refer to the rest accordingly as 荷蘭殖民時期, 西班牙殖民時期, 東寧國殖民時期, 清國殖民時期 and 國民黨殖民時期.
As far as I can tell from my group of friends, who happen for some reason to be quite green (most of them are under 35), the issue is that we are stressing colonialism for Japan while pretending Taiwan should be Chinese, so everyone from Koxinga to the Qing Dynasty and the ROC are not colonial powers, but rather representatives of the motherland come to protect and help Taiwan. It’s unreasonable to call Koxinga’s term 明鄭時期 (The Time of Zheng of the Ming Dynasty), then have no particular term for the Qing conquest, and then Japanese COLONIALISM, and then 光復 – the glorious restoration.
Edit: h beat me to the punch
Early flavour of the Independence movement had its inception right after Chinese occupied Taiwan, but that coincided with Japan’s defeat. This early flavour (Peng min ming, LTH’s generation) lived through discrimination by the Japanese and were fully aware of why Taiwan needed to become independent. However, they also understood that the entire Japanese Chapter was 50 years and WW2 was only 4 years.
Later flavour of the independence movement no longer harbours harsh feelings toward the Japanese, and rather treats Japan as a political ally. Japanese Era became a proper part of Taiwan’s history. The current Chinese occupation by the ROC is as colonial as any previous ones, if not worse. This is living memory, and an ongoing injury.
Not an entirely accurate statement. Modern independence movement predates the end of WW2. In 1941, Takao Prefecture used the excuse of alleged support for TI to persecute over 400 social elites. TI was actively promoted by at least one suspect, Dr. Ngôo Hái-suí (吳海水). Taiwan Communist Party also stated support for a Republic of Taiwan.
Even in China leaders voiced support for TI before and during WW2.
SYS stated support for TI in 1925 (在臺灣的中國同胞，被日本壓迫，我們必須鼓吹臺灣獨立，和高麗的獨立運動互相聯合).
Mao voiced support for TI in 1936 (如果朝鮮人民希望掙脫日本帝國主義者的枷鎖，我們熱烈支持他們爭取獨立的戰鬥，這點同樣適用於臺灣).
CKS voiced support for TI in 1938 (總理以為我們必須使高麗，臺灣恢復獨立自由才能鞏固中華民國的國防).
Chou En-lai voiced support for TI in 1941 (我們同情民族國家的獨立，解放運動，我們不只協助朝鮮與臺灣，也同情印度與南亞諸國的民族解放運動).
I would say Peng Min-ming’s generation was a continuation of pre-WW2 TI movements, but invigorated by what they saw under KMT’s rule.