I’ve always wondered how and why China gave up Mongolia so easily without a fight? I mean, Mongolia is a territory much like Xinjiang, Tibet, Manchuria, all territories of China. It is way more tightly knit with China than Taiwan. In fact, a large part of it, Inner Mongolia, is a part of China. Also, Mongolia has been Chinese territory up until after world war 2 or around that time. Why did China give it up?? Even Taiwan, or rather the ROC, claimed Mongolia as ROC territory the whole time and only gave that up recently. I’ve heard rumors bout the Soviets supporting mongolia independence so that a barrier can be created between China and USSR, but that makes not sense to me at all. I don’t see how a crazy nationalistic commie gov’t like PRC would ever let that happen. Can someone please explain? Thanks.
Russia has a long History of being invaded. Hell, Germany did it twice last century. They still see Germany as a threat. Don’t forget about Ghengis Khan as well. The reason that PRC gave it up is because there isn’t anything of value there. If China doesn’t attack Taiwan then Russia will get her special attention. China needs oil and there might be alot of oil in Siberia.
Andy
[quote=“Grasshopper”]Russia has a long History of being invaded. Hell, Germany did it twice last century. They still see Germany as a threat. Don’t forget about Ghengis Khan as well. The reason that PRC gave it up is because there isn’t anything of value there. If China doesn’t attack Taiwan then Russia will get her special attention. China needs oil and there might be alot of oil in Siberia.
Andy[/quote]
I still don’t think China gave it up “because there isn’t anything of value there”. There’s nothing in Tibet but they still want it. If they want Russian territory or oil, it would be to China’s advantage to keep Mongolia; it would make Russia easier to invade if anything. Also, Mongolia was China’s territory to begin with, so with their nationalistic tendencies i don’t see why they would give it up. It would be like the US suddenly giving up South Dakota or something. Taiwan is pretty much independent but still China wants it.
I also think that China and Russia had no great love for one another and pung a buffer between them would help. They were basically on opposite side of the fence when Vietnam fought the brief border war with China.
Mongolia also is a barren wasteland of sorts so acting as a buffer between the two powers
I should think the Chinese have it pegged as some sort of waste land where savages roam free.
I thought that Russia installed a puppet regime in Mongolia in 1926. China at that point had so many problems that it couldn’t do much about it, and by the time it could, it was already a done deal.
Tibet is being used as a rocket base. It is in a convenient locale to hit both India and Pakistan.
The U.S.S.R. got a Mongolian puppet state as part of the deal for entering WWII against Japan (a big mistake for the U.S., as by the time the Soviets formally declared war against Japan, the Bomb had already been dropped and we didn’t need of their stinkin’ commie help). It’s also the reason why Korea got divided into commie/non-commie. China could do nothing about it as they were in the midst of a civil war, and when 4 years later Mao finally kicked Chiang out to Taiwan, I suppose they just let it be, 'cause commies gotta work together (remember this was at the height of the Cold War), and…hell, you wanna take Mongolia? Tain’t worth much…remember what Winston Churchill said upon Italy’s invasion of Ethiopia, “For a thousand years this nation has never been conquered because no one ever thought it worth the bother.”
Controled by Russia, the Outer Mongolia ruler 活佛 (similar to Tibet’s Lama) declared Independence in 1912, right after Dr. Sun Yi-Shen overthrew Chin Dynasty in 1911. It was such a chaotic era that the new “Republic of China” had her hands so full that she never got a chance to deal with Mongolia. However, China never acknowledged the new “Mongolia” regime. The situation dragged along year afte year… until the end of WWII. Senile Franklin Roosevelt sold Mongolia to Stalin in Yalta meetings, 1945. US “forced” China (CKS) to sign this “friendly treaty” with USSR on Aug 14, in which China agreed to let Mongolia determine her fate via a referendum.
Well, we all know by 1949, CKS lost the entire China to Mao and went to Taiwan… He totally pissed off on Russia on helping Mao and he declared the 1945 “friendly treaty” invalid. Also, Russia totally engineered the referendum. Most Mongolians didn’t know they’ve got a new country! Even today, our ROC government in Taiwan is still in deep denial and won’t officially admit this blunder. Take a look at any “Map of China” printed in Taiwan! Outer Mongolia is still part of China!!
On the other hand, Mao got the huge China “free” via Stalin’s help. He couldn’t say anything about Mongolia but promptly honored the outcome of the Referendum. “People Republic of China” sent an ambassador to the newly established nation. That settled that.
So, both ROC & PRC were to blame for the lost of Mongolia. Of course, Russia was the real bad guy and USA, stupid, as usual.
China, like any other big countries in the world, has many minorities. General Chinese people include Hans(central part), Manchurians, Mongols, Hues (N & NW Muslims), Tibetans (I know you’d like to argue about this), Miaos(SW), and numerous others. Were it not for the fact that CKS fled to Taiwan and all the aftermaths, Taiwanese won’t be treated as “minorities”. Anyway, these minorites all have separatists seeking independency, but do you know many of these Chinese “minorities” took turns in history to rule the same old big “China”! The late Chin 清 Dynasty (1644-1911) was all Manchurian rules. I kid you not, Mandarin – the daily Chinese language today, is the dialect of minority Manchurians! Yuan Dynasty (1279-1368) was created by Mongolians (元世祖 忽必烈: Grandson of Genghis Khan). Dynasties of Jin 金 (1115-1234), West Xia(1038-1227), Liao(916-1125), and even big portion of blood in Tang (618-907) were all Muslim work.
They were & are part of “China”. Why would an Emperor ever want to be independent from his own domain!? The Independence of outer Mongolia badly mared the spirits of Democracy.
First, you would be referring to the Qing (Ch’ing) Dynasty, and not the Qin (Ch’in) Dynasty … you’re off by a couple thousand years. Secondly, Mandarin is not the language of the Manchus. Mandarin is based on the Beijing dialect which is very much Chinese. The Manchus were gradually assimilated into Chinese culture, and eventually lost their own language … by the end of the dynasty not even the Manchu rulers could speak their own “mother tongue.” Today, I think, there are something like 20 elderly people in Northeastern China who can still speak Manchu. So, I think you have your facts mixed up … although not surprising …
I already corrected this fool on his misunderstood linguistics and history once, by simply pointing to an encyclopedia entry, and yet he completely ignored that and yet still insists upon peddling his nonsense about Manchus and Mandarin. Manchu is a Mongolian, not Sino-Tibetan, tongue. Some never listen and never learn.
Here, read this, it’s a good book:
I can’t really translate Chinese characters “correctly” to Ping-Ying or whatever the standard is today. From all the “years” I quoted, you know dame well I didn’t miss it. Mandarin was the spoken dialect in the courts where presumably packed with all Manchurians. Your understanding of the Chinese “Melting Pot”, however, is the vital point I tried to address.
BTW, people here are trying to learn something about Chinese stuff. You’ve got something to say; do so. Avoid those irrelevant cheap shots.
Ummm … no, you’re wrong again. Jeez, for such a patriotic Chinese guy, your knowledge of Chinese history sure is crap …
Your analogy is like saying that France is part of England because French was the court language of the Normans, or that Belgium is part of Italy because the priests and all cultured people spoke Latin.
The Qing Dynasty operated a bit like modern day Canada in that all government documents had to be written in two languages: Manchu and Mandarin. The Manchus spoke Mandarin because it was the common language of cultured people in China at the time, much as Latin was the common court language in most of Europe during the same time frame. That doesn’t make the Manchus Chinese nor the Prussians Roman.
Let’s quote the original now:
太 祖 承 天 廣 運 聖 德 神 功 肇 紀 立 極 仁 孝 睿 武 端 毅 欽 安弘 文 定 業 高 皇 帝 ， 姓 愛 新 覺 羅 氏 ， 諱 努 爾 哈 齊 ， 其 先 蓋金 遺 部 。 始 祖 布 庫 里 雍 順 ， 母 曰 佛 庫 倫 ， 相 傳 感 朱 果 而孕 。 稍 長 ， 定 三 姓 之 亂 ， 眾 奉 為 貝 勒 ， 居 長 白 山 東 俄 漠惠 之 野 俄 朵 里 城 ， 號 其 部 族 曰 滿 洲 ， 滿 洲 自 此 始 。
[quote=“tomyang”]Let’s quote the original now:
太 祖 承 天 廣 運 聖 德 神 功 肇 紀 立 極 仁 孝 睿 武 端 毅 欽 安弘 文 定 業 高 皇 帝 ， 姓 愛 新 覺 羅 氏 ， 諱 努 爾 哈 齊 ， 其 先 蓋金 遺 部 。 始 祖 布 庫 里 雍 順 ， 母 曰 佛 庫 倫 ， 相 傳 感 朱 果 而孕 。 稍 長 ， 定 三 姓 之 亂 ， 眾 奉 為 貝 勒 ， 居 長 白 山 東 俄 漠惠 之 野 俄 朵 里 城 ， 號 其 部 族 曰 滿 洲 ， 滿 洲 自 此 始 。
http://www.chinapage.com/big5/big5-history.html[/quote]
And where is the part about all of the court officials being Manchurian? I know my classical Chinese can’t be that bad to have not picked that out of there … 
可能這樣你可以懂得比較清楚﹕滿洲人之所以能夠統治中國那麼久是因為他們知道如何用漢人的官員。你說清朝的朝廷充滿了滿洲人是錯的。
That quote is for mod lang’s recent post. He said Manchu is of Mongolian.
Mandarin 一般字典都翻作 “滿清官話”
I’m searching the net now for the history & development of the
dialect of “Mandarin”. Yo’re right, 清廷充滿了滿洲人是錯的
Yes, languages evolve dynamically. I won’t say Japanese today is Chinese at all, even it’s “borrowed” from China during the Tang Dynasty.
Mandarin is quite recent.
[quote=“mod lang”]From your very own link:
Yes… but what’s this to do with your or my earlier argument?
Japanese borrowed some characters from Chinese, but its grammar and spoken vocabulary and syntax…etc., are unrelated to Chinese. Swedish isn’t related to Latin just because it borrowed the Latin alphabet.
Ok, re-phrase:
Yes, languages evolve dynamically. I won’t at all say today’s modern
Japanese is Chinese, even though most of its characters were borrowed from Chinese during the Tang Dynasty.