Why Some People Leave South Africa


#21

At the end of the day, a name is just a name, is just a name. I have friends named Stalin, Genghiz, Fidel, and even Ian Smith. :laughing:
As for the Mandela should have been hanged argument, well they did hang, shoot, beat to death others who would have been much more moderate and loads more capable than the present leaders of the ANC. Shot themselves in the foot, they did.


#22

Yeah, Mandela was terrible. Didn’t he do ethnic and gender studies at McGill? He should be shot. We need more reliable types like Botha.[/quote]

They replaced one cadre of gangsters with another (from white gangsters to black ones). Maybe that’s normal for politics worldwide but I’m always entertained when suburban leftists lionize terrorists such as Arafat and Mandela.


#23

Yeah, Mandela was terrible. Didn’t he do ethnic and gender studies at McGill? He should be shot. We need more reliable types like Botha.[/quote]

They replaced one cadre of gangsters with another (from white gangsters to black ones).[/quote]
Oh, you are quite right there. As I said in a previous post, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Mandela was no saint back in the day. However, he only went over to an armed struggle after he had exhausted all peaceful options, which didn’t work those days because guys like him were just seen as troublesome kaffirs best locked up, violent or not. After 1990 is a different story. Atrocities were committed on both sides and the country was filled with hate and ripe for violence. If it weren’t for men like him that the majority looked to for guidance who opted for peace and coexistence, nation building and a healing of wounds, things would of gotten real ugly real quick (and after he dies, with the likes of Zuma and Malema left untended, it may still erupt into something ugly). Whatever he may have been before he went to prison, he more than made up for in 27 years and after his release. That people can not see that astounds me. Each time the long knives came out, he reasoned with the radicals, and even after his single term as president he still, for a long time, talked down those who would tear everything apart. He has been a moderating influence on the likes of the worst in SA for 22 years, and as he is not long for this world, I wonder how things will go there once he’s gone.

Either way, good luck with that. I’m well out of it.


#24

Careful with the thinly veiled personal insults.

And?

Btw, you should get your hatred straight. Commie Angolans and Cubans weren’t ANC/APLA cadres. But it seems you ate up that NP propaganda hook, line and sinker. Then again, SADF era National Service? No surprise.

Seriously, you need to move on. 22 Years have passed since Madiba was released. Even more since actual fighting in Angola. Maybe you need to take a Christian page out of his and Tutu’s book. Forgive and forget. Move on. If you care so much, go back there and do something about it. EYE for one didn’t move here to be surrounded by the likes of this, this mostly annoys and nauseates me. I came here to get away from people who think like this: The die hard bittereinder Dutchy clinging to the past because he can’t make anything for himself in the present without government hand outs and job reservation acts for uneducated whitey.

In fact, I’m so sickened now, I’m going for a walk to remind myself where I am.[/quote]

Lol hope you have a KICKASS walk…


#25

Mandela may have been a terrorist at one time, but I’ll wager that his 27 years at Robben Island changed him. The man that came out was willing to forgive the worst excesses of the apartheid era with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and lead his nation with dignity and honor. If he is willing to forgive the state terrorism against South African blacks and other non-whites, then why can’t you forgive him for mistakes made decades before?


#26

He came out unrepentant, and even admits and gloats to having “signed off” on the Church Str. bombing in his so-called book “Long Walk to Freedom”. The “excesses of apartheid” pale into insignificance when compared to the heinous terror he and his Mkhonto We Sizwe (that he founded) heaped on hapless (Black) conscripts who were often kidnapped and forced into terrorist training camps, as well as others who were terrorised, and even “necklaced” if they did not co-operate with the ANC.

As far as forgiveness, well that is an old and tired fable that has passed its sell-by date yonks ago. He should have THANKED his judges for sparing his miserable commie life. Indeed, the International community was gobsmacked at the time by (in the light of the charges leveled) the light sentence that was handed down to him. In practically every other nation at the time, a death sentence would have been the norm because of the severity of his crimes. In 1985,then president PW Botha hosted Mandela at his home in the town of George in South Africa, and offered Mandela freedom on condition that he would renounce violence as a means of obtaining his goals. Mandela refused. So, to hell with him, the violent old fart.


#27

Strange how you can’t see that not hanging Mandela was not a positive result. Very odd indeed.

Apart from fact that when you kill a ‘freedom fighter’ more will always pop in their place.
What else were they supposed to do, they were not given any political freedom whatsoever? The result was inevitable.

I have read a little about the last days of apartheid. It was clear that the regime had correctly identified Mandela as somebody who could help lead South africa through a transition period. Pity they hadn’t figured it out 30 years before!

We can see the same thing happening in the Arab world now, the situation in Syria looks absolutely dire. It shows the weakness of your argument, the idea that hanging people would have solved the underlying issues.

Reconciliation and compromise is possible, in Northern Ireland there is a former IRA commander serving as deputy heads of state. The head of state is a former sworn enemy. Not everybody is happy about it, but it works. They even have a laugh now and then.


#28

Mandela was indeed a terrorist by any honest reading of the facts. Speaking of being entertained by others lionization of terrorists though you left America’s favorite terrorist off your list:

[quote]Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war. … We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle.

First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today, and its task is a major one: it demonstrates in the clearest language, heard throughout the world including by our unfortunate brethren outside the gates of this country, our war against the occupier.[/quote]
– Former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, “Terror” 1943

– President Barack Obama, June 30, 2012


#29

Mandela was indeed a terrorist by any honest reading of the facts. Speaking of being entertained by others lionization of terrorists though you left America’s favorite terrorist off your list:

[quote]Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war. … We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle.

First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today, and its task is a major one: it demonstrates in the clearest language, heard throughout the world including by our unfortunate brethren outside the gates of this country, our war against the occupier.[/quote]
– Former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, “Terror” 1943

– President Barack Obama, June 30, 2012[/quote]

Your point?

Or is it not possible for you to discuss a topic, without bringing Israel into the equation? :loco:


#30

Mandela was indeed a terrorist by any honest reading of the facts. Speaking of being entertained by others lionization of terrorists though you left America’s favorite terrorist off your list:

[quote]Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war. … We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle.

First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today, and its task is a major one: it demonstrates in the clearest language, heard throughout the world including by our unfortunate brethren outside the gates of this country, our war against the occupier.[/quote]
– Former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, “Terror” 1943

– President Barack Obama, June 30, 2012[/quote]

Your point?

Or is it not possible for you to discuss a topic, without bringing Israel into the equation? :loco:[/quote]

My point? People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.


#31

And who exactly is living in a glass house and throwing stones?

And what does this have to do with Israel?


#32

I am a Saffer, and i love my country, the “New South Africa”. Or should it be the only South Africa, as the previous one pre 1994 was just a country for a few people of a certain race group.

El Toro, i think you are just pissed off that you cannot compete in the workplace in South Africa with BEE and Affirmative action. I may not like BEE or AA policies whole heartedly, but these are reforms to fix the past injustices performed by the previous regime. Accept it.
For many many years certain race groups enjoyed benefits that were unjustly taken from others or just provided by the corrupt, terrorist and unjust government at the time, however i didnt see many people in the streets complaining, or protesting that the man or women next to them did not recieve the same benefits.

In a way, i think these extra benefits and laws that were in place that provided benefits for certain people only, actually ‘dumbed’ them down, as they need not compete on such a large scale with the entire populaton.
Now, post 1994, when the market is open to all, these people find it difficult to find jobs etc.
Quite funny in a way, as it is a sort of Bantu Education to its own ‘elite’ people :notworthy:

And on the topic of crime etc., YES it is a problem, and yes the government is struggling with this and many other problems. However, i think you should take some time out and read the SA constitution and policies, you will find that the new government, which was democratically elected, has absolutely excellent policies. The problem is more in service delivery and implementation.
Further, on the crime, if the previous unjust government made a point of not providing certain race groups with proper education, facilities and oppotunities. (Read: Bantu Education System / House Areas Act / Dom Pass Law etc), my opinion is that the major problem of crime is just a legacy of the apartheid government. Do not EVER blame the new governement for trying to fix that POS apartheid governments faults and unjust policies.

Lastly, Mandela may not be an angel, but like some have posted, when you are fighting a government with far superior resources, there are certain actions which a fari game IMO. Besides, how are the so called terrorist actions of the ANC worse than the following,

Sharpville Massacre - 69 innocent protesters killed, 180 Injured
Soweto Uprising - 700 Student Killed, 4000 Injured
Eugene de Kock - Nickname ‘Prime Evil’ was Police Chief in the aprthied government that kidnapped, tortured, and murdered hundreds of anti-apartheid activists
Steve Biko - Death under police custody through injuries sustained from torture

So please dont talk about South Africa as a land that you know, as the only South Africa i think you know is one where the government gave you special treatment. Besides, your avatar says it all, still flying that old Oppresive, Terrorist Apartheid South Africa flag.
I dare you to go to south africa and fly that flag in the street :laughing:


#33

I wonder which is the greater evil, and more deserving of the hangman’s noose?

Is it: Taking up whatever weapons you can get your hands on and putting your life on the line against vastly more numerous and better equipped professional killers in a desperate effort to free your loved ones and the vast majority of your compatriots from brutal and unreasoning oppression, even acting against your conscience to reluctantly take the lives of a small number of the oppressors’ family members and non-combatant supporters when it’s necessary to achieve your righteous aims of saving a much greater number of at least equally innocent people from incarceration, torture and murder by the hired hands of the brutish oppressors, and saving countless others from suffering and death caused by the terrible living conditions, lack of access to essential services, joblessness, poverty, hunger, despair, and other ills inflicted upon the mass of the people by the merciless oppressors?

Or is it: Paying and conscripting men to use the best and deadliest weapons money can buy to slaughter those who disagree with how you run their country, to ensure that you and yours are able to lord it over everyone else, keep them cowed and submissive, and continue to live rich and privileged lives while the mass of the people struggle to survive in poverty, deprivation and hopelessness?

The answer seems quite obvious to me, though I’d rather dispense with the noose, break the vicious cycle of killing, and use more enlightened means of punishing those deserving of punishment.


#34

Terrorism is evil no matter who is perpetrating it or for what cause. If you doubt that imagine cradling your dying child in your arms after Nelson Mandela, Yassir Arafat, Padraig Wilson, Yitzhak Shamir or any other terrorist had just set off the bomb which fatally injured him or her for their cause.


#35

Or picking through what’s left of your tin shack to try to find at least a chunk or two of what’s left of your entire family after an attack by government forces. :unamused:

About the only palatable thing in this thread is the fact that there are MANY Saffas posting, so that it becomes pretty obvious that this El Toro character is standing (thankfully) pretty much on his own on this issue. In fact, it looks very much as if his fellow countrymen look upon him and his ilk as something of an anathema. Thankfully.


#36

I for one had an excellent job back in SA.

I also believe majority rule was correct and the only way forward. And, yes. Whites benefited from the previous gov.

However, I have a problem with any type of AA/BEE policies. You cannot fix past injustice, with new injustice.

Instead of saying “Sorry we cannot give you a job as you are black”, it is now “We cannot give you a job because you are white”.

In the gov sector, I can semi understand it.

However, in the private sector it should not be allowed. This type of interfering actually does more harm than good.

I remember a friend’s father was a gov worker in Cape Town. Quite senior. He lost his job as he was white. He was replaced, but the new worker had no experience in running the specific department. So, my friends dad was hired back as a consultant, at something like 5 times his previous salary. If I am not mistaken, he is still working as a consultant. A waste of resources in my opinion.

Ant transformation needs to start at grassroots level. With education. Unfortunately, non whites got an inferior education. Primary, secondary and tertiary. This is where all transformation must occur, to level the playing fields.
However, the mad rush to replace whites with blacks was a totally inefficient policy. Many companies has to create artificial positions to comply.

The company I worked for was seriously thinking if making the Janitor a director, just because they needed to comply with BEE requirements, and could not find suitable candidates. They would have basically needed to create an artificial position to comply. :roflmao: :roflmao:


#37

Ah yes. I agree. But as usual you had to single out Israel. :ohreally:


#38

[quote=“bigduke6”]Instead of saying “Sorry we cannot give you a job as you are black”, it is now “We cannot give you a job because you are white”.

In the gov sector, I can semi understand it.

However, in the private sector it should not be allowed. This type of interfering actually does more harm than good.
[/quote]

I think the way in which BEE was implemented was incorrect. The government needed to make changes, and start sharing the wealth across the entire population, but i believe the policy was too short sighted. I am all for giving those that were previously disadvantaged a slightly better chance of getting jobs etc, but this should be done with little to no impact to the economy.
IMO, the right way of BEE should have been the candidate with the best skillset / experience always gets the job, but if there are two candidates with the same skillset etc, and one of those candidates is a previously disadvantaged candidate, then the position should go to the previously disadvantaged candidate.
Having said that, i think in a way the government was forced to implement these hardline BEE policies to drive change, as if it was left to the private sector it would have taken a very very long time.


#39

Ah yes. I agree. But as usual you had to single out Israel. :ohreally:[/quote]

I didn’t single out anybody. I singled in everybody’s moral blind spot because the persistent delusion that some terrorism is good or morally excusable is a major reason why terrorism persists in the world.


#40

Mandela was indeed a terrorist by any honest reading of the facts. Speaking of being entertained by others lionization of terrorists though you left America’s favorite terrorist off your list:

[quote]Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war. … We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle.

First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today, and its task is a major one: it demonstrates in the clearest language, heard throughout the world including by our unfortunate brethren outside the gates of this country, our war against the occupier.[/quote]
– Former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, “Terror” 1943

– President Barack Obama, June 30, 2012[/quote]

Must be another Winston Smith. This post clearly singles out Israel.