Why Some People Leave South Africa

Politics International Politics
41

[quote=“madracer”]I am a Saffer, and i love my country, the “New South Africa”. Or should it be the only South Africa, as the previous one pre 1994 was just a country for a few people of a certain race group. So please dont talk about South Africa as a land that you know, as the only South Africa I think you know is one where the government gave you special treatment. Besides, your avatar says it all, still flying that old Oppresive, Terrorist Apartheid South Africa flag.
I dare you to go to south africa and fly that flag in the street :laughing:[/quote]

I met some dutch speaking south africans near where I live and they were saying how they missed having drivers and gardeners and housekeepers because when they were kids thats what they were meant to have, a life where race gave you rank and status. At least when they come to Taiwan they can still have this pretense that Asians look up to whites. :unamused:

Of course some south africans live here for the peace and security and having a job. That’s good as Taiwan can use immigrants. Just leave your politics about south africa back there. If south africa so concerns south africans why don’t they go back there and become politicians and do something for their country apart from leaving and forming enclaves in Taiwan.

Most foreingers I know in Taiwan are hard working. One of my british friends has been here 15 years, wife, kids, good job, and still can’t have a conversation in Chinese. This is the biggest issue he has everyday, to have to reply on his wife or other locals with good English to do anything locally as his Chinese sucks.

42

[quote=“headhonchoII”]Strange how you can’t see that not hanging Mandela was not a positive result. Very odd indeed.

Apart from fact that when you kill a ‘freedom fighter’ more will always pop in their place.
What else were they supposed to do, they were not given any political freedom whatsoever? The result was inevitable.

I have read a little about the last days of apartheid. It was clear that the regime had correctly identified Mandela as somebody who could help lead South africa through a transition period. Pity they hadn’t figured it out 30 years before!

We can see the same thing happening in the Arab world now, the situation in Syria looks absolutely dire. It shows the weakness of your argument, the idea that hanging people would have solved the underlying issues.

Reconciliation and compromise is possible, in Northern Ireland there is a former IRA commander serving as deputy heads of state. The head of state is a former sworn enemy. Not everybody is happy about it, but it works. They even have a laugh now and then.[/quote]

Look, of course it was not a positive result. It emboldened his fellow terrorists to further commit other acts of terror, all of which are well documented. A murderer, terrorist, rapist (not that he was the latter) does not deserve to share the same planet as the rest of us. And that includes “White” scumbags who murder Black women and children in the name of freedom (not that that has happened nearly as much to Black people)

Mandela as somebody who could help lead South africa through a transition period? I think you are really not privy to all the facts. I lived in the country during almost that whole period. You are also talking about reconciliation? I sincerely hope so, but I’m not hopeful, since 18 years have already lapsed since the debacle of the “rainbow nation” was created. Another thing to consider is that the culture and customs of the two opposing parties in the Ulster conflict were not as disparate as those found in Africa. The implications are complex, controversial, and considerable.

43

Mandela was indeed a terrorist by any honest reading of the facts. Speaking of being entertained by others lionization of terrorists though you left America’s favorite terrorist off your list:

[quote]Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war. … We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle.

First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today, and its task is a major one: it demonstrates in the clearest language, heard throughout the world including by our unfortunate brethren outside the gates of this country, our war against the occupier.[/quote]
– Former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, “Terror” 1943

– President Barack Obama, June 30, 2012[/quote]

Must be another Winston Smith. This post clearly singles out Israel.[/quote]

Yitzhak Shamir just died on June 30 and was lionized throughout the West by those who apparently suffered from amnesia about his terrorist past so his inclusion in any discussion of who is a terrorist and who isn’t is topical

44

Mandela was indeed a terrorist by any honest reading of the facts. Speaking of being entertained by others lionization of terrorists though you left America’s favorite terrorist off your list:

[quote]Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war. … We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle.

First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today, and its task is a major one: it demonstrates in the clearest language, heard throughout the world including by our unfortunate brethren outside the gates of this country, our war against the occupier.[/quote]
– Former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, “Terror” 1943

– President Barack Obama, June 30, 2012[/quote]

Must be another Winston Smith. This post clearly singles out Israel.[/quote]

Yitzhak Shamir just died on June 30 and was lionized throughout the West by those who apparently suffered from amnesia about his terrorist past so his inclusion in any discussion of who is a terrorist and who isn’t is topical[/quote]

Your mouth must be extremely sore, based on the number of times you have put your foot in it.

Your claim was you did not single out Israel, which you clearly did. Why not take it like a man for once? :unamused:

45

[quote=“bigduke6”]Your mouth must be extremely sore, based on the number of times you have put your foot in it.

Your claim was you did not single out Israel, which you clearly did. Why not take it like a man for once? :unamused:[/quote]

Not as sore as if I were speaking out of both sides of my mouth when it comes to terrorism. The sad fact is is that very few people are intellectually and morally consistent when it comes to terrorism and that’s why the disease won’t go away.

46

I have not mentioned terrorism once? I have checked my posts in this thread.

I simply asked you why you always have to single out Israel.

You then added a few more names to your list, and claimed you did not single out Israel.

I then showed you that you did single out Israel.

Why do you not stand by your posts?

You always post some nonsense, and then when you get called out you change your story and start to whine about something irrelavent.

47

Ah yes. I agree. But as usual you had to single out Israel. :ohreally:[/quote]

I didn’t single out anybody. I singled in everybody’s moral blind spot because the persistent delusion that some terrorism is good or morally excusable is a major reason why terrorism persists in the world.[/quote]
Yes, and we’re talking about South Africa, but each time you mention South African terrorists all you come up with is Mandela.
You conveniently overlook or seem to be ignorant of D.F. Malan, H.F. Verwoerd, Pik Botha, P.W. Botha, Eugene de Kock, Dr. Wouter Basson, Andries Treurnicht, B. J. Vorster, J.G. Strijdom, J. F. van Rensburg, Barend Hendrik Strydom, Janus Walus, Clive Derby-Lewis, Adriaan Vlok, Gen Magnus Malan, Gen Constand Viljoen, Gen Johannes Geldenhuys, South African Police, Afrikaner Broederbond, Robert McBride (ANC - Magoos bar bomber), Sichumiso Nonxuba, Bassie Mkhumbuzi, Gcinikhaya Makoma and Tobela Mlambisa (Saint James Church massacre).

What I also find interesting is how some, especially racist and intolerant folks, call themselves Christians (with quaint beliefs like Harry Potter is the work of the devil :roflmao: ), but aren’t willing to forgive and move on. The last mentioned St James Church massacre is revealing:

That was one of the most horrid and cowardly attacks towards the end of this sorry mess that wavers of this ugly toilet paper rag - - and the NP perpetrated, yet the victims of that attack were still able to reconcile their differences and move on. Those are true South Africans.

So I say again, the minority leave for racist reasons, the majority of Saffas left for the self same reasons as anyone else from North America, Europe, Aussie or NZ. And the ones that end up staying, invariably stay for the same reasons too. :2cents:

48

[quote=“asian boy”][quote=“madracer”]I am a Saffer, and i love my country, the “New South Africa”. Or should it be the only South Africa, as the previous one pre 1994 was just a country for a few people of a certain race group. So please dont talk about South Africa as a land that you know, as the only South Africa I think you know is one where the government gave you special treatment. Besides, your avatar says it all, still flying that old Oppresive, Terrorist Apartheid South Africa flag.
I dare you to go to south africa and fly that flag in the street :laughing:[/quote]

I met some dutch speaking south africans near where I live and they were saying how they missed having drivers and gardeners and housekeepers because when they were kids thats what they were meant to have, a life where race gave you rank and status. At least when they come to Taiwan they can still have this pretense that Asians look up to whites. :unamused:

Of course some south africans live here for the peace and security and having a job. That’s good as Taiwan can use immigrants. Just leave your politics about south africa back there. If south africa so concerns south africans why don’t they go back there and become politicians and do something for their country apart from leaving and forming enclaves in Taiwan.

Most foreingers I know in Taiwan are hard working. One of my british friends has been here 15 years, wife, kids, good job, and still can’t have a conversation in Chinese. This is the biggest issue he has everyday, to have to reply on his wife or other locals with good English to do anything locally as his Chinese sucks.[/quote]
Bloody well said!!! Especially the italicized parts!! :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:

49

Ah yes. I agree. But as usual you had to single out Israel. :ohreally:[/quote]

I didn’t single out anybody. I singled in everybody’s moral blind spot because the persistent delusion that some terrorism is good or morally excusable is a major reason why terrorism persists in the world.[/quote]
Yes, and we’re talking about South Africa, but each time you mention South African terrorists all you come up with is Mandela.
You conveniently overlook or seem to be ignorant of D.F. Malan, H.F. Verwoerd, Pik Botha, P.W. Botha, Eugene de Kock, Dr. Wouter Basson, Andries Treurnicht, B. J. Vorster, J.G. Strijdom, J. F. van Rensburg, Barend Hendrik Strydom, Janus Walus, Clive Derby-Lewis, Adriaan Vlok, Gen Magnus Malan, Gen Constand Viljoen, Gen Johannes Geldenhuys, South African Police, Afrikaner Broederbond, Robert McBride (ANC - Magoos bar bomber), Sichumiso Nonxuba, Bassie Mkhumbuzi, Gcinikhaya Makoma and Tobela Mlambisa (Saint James Church massacre).[/quote]

Afrikaan and ANC terrorists to a man. No excuses or evasions here.

50

I’m suddenly in the mood for a sausage. Juicy as you said.

51

I’m suddenly in the mood for a sausage. Juicy as you said.[/quote]

Hmmm, tittilating there! What flayva do ya fayva, Bubba? :stuck_out_tongue:

52

Ah yes. I agree. But as usual you had to single out Israel. :ohreally:[/quote]

I didn’t single out anybody. I singled in everybody’s moral blind spot because the persistent delusion that some terrorism is good or morally excusable is a major reason why terrorism persists in the world.[/quote]
Yes, and we’re talking about South Africa, but each time you mention South African terrorists all you come up with is Mandela.
You conveniently overlook or seem to be ignorant of D.F. Malan, H.F. Verwoerd, Pik Botha, P.W. Botha, Eugene de Kock, Dr. Wouter Basson, Andries Treurnicht, B. J. Vorster, J.G. Strijdom, J. F. van Rensburg, Barend Hendrik Strydom, Janus Walus, Clive Derby-Lewis, Adriaan Vlok, Gen Magnus Malan, Gen Constand Viljoen, Gen Johannes Geldenhuys, South African Police, Afrikaner Broederbond, Robert McBride (ANC - Magoos bar bomber), Sichumiso Nonxuba, Bassie Mkhumbuzi, Gcinikhaya Makoma and Tobela Mlambisa (Saint James Church massacre).

What I also find interesting is how some, especially racist and intolerant folks, call themselves Christians (with quaint beliefs like Harry Potter is the work of the devil :roflmao: ), but aren’t willing to forgive and move on. The last mentioned St James Church massacre is revealing:

That was one of the most horrid and cowardly attacks towards the end of this sorry mess that wavers of this ugly toilet paper rag - - and the NP perpetrated, yet the victims of that attack were still able to reconcile their differences and move on. Those are true South Africans.

So I say again, the minority leave for racist reasons, the majority of Saffas left for the self same reasons as anyone else from North America, Europe, Aussie or NZ. And the ones that end up staying, invariably stay for the same reasons too. :2cents:[/quote]

Trying to shift focus, huh? lol, it’s not wekking bra! Why should I mention all those apartheid era figures ?(some heroes, like Janus Walusz who popped Hani)

Charl van Wyk and Amy Biehl’s parents are both products of the pervasive hensopper liberal plague that permeates seemingly every
fibre of society.

You are very wrong about why most South Africans have left. How do you explain more than 30% of White South Africans having left(fled)?
You are living in a dreamworld.

You are right that I was wrong about Harry Potter. I no longer subscribe to any religion, so you can forget about THAT one.

Incidentally, you are losing focus here. And don’t seem to twig that Mandela is the granddaddy of all the commie terrs that took his example. And that this is the reason that most South African Whites have left.

Well, at the very least, I stole some minutes from you lol!

53

You are the only person who posts like this. None of the Saffers I know (and I know a LOT, as I live in Taiwan) hold this hideous mindset. You are pretty much a lone voice, so blinded by your sectarian hate that you don’t even seem to be aware of this. Hint: Most South African whites who have left, or at least the ones here, are sickened and embarrassed by your kind of views.
Those of us who aren’t from SA, on the other hand, just see them as strange and somewhat frightening ravings from a bygone age. A Spitting Image caricature.

Suffice it to say, Mandela seems pretty well-regarded by pretty much everyone for standing up against years and years of brutal oppression of a gang of dirty violent thugs.

54

What’s wrong with leaving your country of birth? I thought most people leave coz they can, it is easier to travel, find work, settle down and find good food in other places now than it ever was in the past.

55

[quote=“Omniloquacious”]But, El Toro, what was the alternative to taking up arms against the apartheid regime? Just grin and accept it philosophically, while hoping that your oppressors might one day decide to toss you a scrap or two of human rights, just out of the pure goodness overflowing from their hearts?

There haven’t been too many freedom fighters anywhere in the world or in history who have gained much for their people without shedding the blood of those oppressing them.[/quote]

Does M.K Gandhi ring a bell?

There can never be any justification for terrorism…If you really have reached the end of the road and you in the right, then kill or get killed. Don’t cover your face, don’t use religion as an excuse, don’t prey on the innocent. Go directly for the jugular!!

56

You are the only person who posts like this. None of the Saffers I know (and I know a LOT, as I live in Taiwan) hold this hideous mindset. You are pretty much a lone voice, so blinded by your sectarian hate that you don’t even seem to be aware of this. Hint: Most South African whites who have left, or at least the ones here, are sickened and embarrassed by your kind of views.
Those of us who aren’t from SA, on the other hand, just see them as strange and somewhat frightening ravings from a bygone age. A Spitting Image caricature.

Suffice it to say, Mandela seems pretty well-regarded by pretty much everyone for standing up against years and years of brutal oppression of a gang of dirty violent thugs.[/quote]

Lol I was waiting for you to jump in. Pretty much anyone who grew up during the ANCs campaign of terror in SA would be honest enough to admit to the facts of what happened and who claimed responsibility for all the car bomb attacks, supermarket bombs etc etc. Truth is, most who do not supposedly hold my views are petrified at the prospect of being considered the pariah that SA was during the apartheid years. It seems that they are not willing to sacrifice their (relatively) newly-gained International acceptance. As for me, I don’t care at all about acceptance by anyone if it means being a liar just to be able to fraternise with the ignorant and sometimes deceitful. I’d suggest you read Bulala by Cuan Elgin.
Anyhow, I think it’s not your fault that you hold the views that you do, since you have obviously not been availed of the pertinent facts. Incidentally, I don’t know how you define car bombs et al as “standing up against years and years of…blah blah blah” .
Now Ghandi, HE is one that I take my hat off to.
Love ya!

57

You are the only person who posts like this. None of the Saffers I know (and I know a LOT, as I live in Taiwan) hold this hideous mindset. You are pretty much a lone voice, so blinded by your sectarian hate that you don’t even seem to be aware of this. Hint: Most South African whites who have left, or at least the ones here, are sickened and embarrassed by your kind of views.
Those of us who aren’t from SA, on the other hand, just see them as strange and somewhat frightening ravings from a bygone age. A Spitting Image caricature.

Suffice it to say, Mandela seems pretty well-regarded by pretty much everyone for standing up against years and years of brutal oppression of a gang of dirty violent thugs.[/quote]

Lol I was waiting for you to jump in. Pretty much anyone who grew up during the ANCs campaign of terror in SA would be honest enough to admit to the facts of what happened and who claimed responsibility for all the car bomb attacks, supermarket bombs etc etc. Truth is, most who do not supposedly hold my views are petrified at the prospect of being considered the pariah that SA was during the apartheid years. It seems that they are not willing to sacrifice their (relatively) newly-gained International acceptance. As for me, I don’t care at all about acceptance by anyone if it means being a liar just to be able to fraternise with the ignorant and sometimes deceitful. I’d suggest you read Bulala by Cuan Elgin.
Anyhow, I think it’s not your fault that you hold the views that you do, since you have obviously not been availed of the pertinent facts. Incidentally, I don’t know how you define car bombs et al as “standing up against years and years of…blah blah blah” .
Now Ghandi, HE is one that I take my hat off to.
Love ya![/quote]
They tend to be nice blokes and the ones I know personally are most certainly not liars, any more than I am ignorant or deceitful. As for “pertinent facts” well sure, I’m definitely a bit hazy on the strange version in YOUR playbook, but most of us are perfectly well aware of the horrors of the apartheid era and of the brutal thuggery of South Africa’s white leadership. But hell! Don’t take MY word for it! Just ask the rest of the entire world.

58

El Toro - By your reasoning the Jewish partisans in WW2 Europe that were fighting back against the Nazis were actually terrorists who should have been executed.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

59

El Toro,
Good on you for sticking to your ground, and asserting what you believe. Most people who are selling to the local foreign community would not voice such an unpopular opinion in such a fashion.
Personally, I think Mandela is overrated - the near saint-like status he has long enjoyed in the West is a bit more than he deserves. I’ve always thought he’s a good target for any up and coming Hitchens wannabee; just as Christopher Hitchens wrote a book demonizing Mother Teressa, so there is material and guaranteed publicity in taking on Mandela. There have been critical works written about Gandhi, and goodness knows there’s lots of ammo available for such a task.
It’s not that Mandela is a bad chap but there comes a time when the adulation should give way to a bit of nuance; perhaps this will happen a few years after his death. I do think a revisionist take on him would still come out giving him pass marks, that he was basically a good man who did a reasonable job. But I would not put him in the ranks of Aung San Suu Kyi and the Dalai Lama.

60

He was aided by an even dirtier bunch of thugs (e.g., Gaddafi, Mugabe etc). :laughing:

Pretty much everyone? Maybe a lot of euro trash organizations such as the Nobel Institute gave him awards :laughing: Then again, they gave one to Arafat in the 90s and nominated Hitler in 1939.

Many countries opposed apartheid with economic sanctions or promoted constructive engagement that encouraged the regime to change. Recently such type of efforts helped Burma change. Mandela didn’t need to embrace terrorist activities, promote the armed struggle or name his family member after Gaddafi. He could have been a real opposition peacemaker like Aung san suu kyi.

And people comparing the terrorist activities in South Africa to Shamir during the Mandate years on Israel is ludicrous. If you had five million relatives/Jews die while Europe slept/and needed an American bailout/rescue during WW2, you’d oppose British colonialism. The minorities in South Africa had every right to reject white domination rule, they just did so in a prolonged and violent way and chose really bad partners. :laughing: Contrast that with Israel where statehood was supported by major powers (USSR, USA etc.) and where the Stern Gang, Irgun and the Palmach combined to form the IDF after statehood (in other words, the guerilla warfare against the British was short, successful and very limited).