Taiwan province and Fujian province have their own flag. With a beautiful KMT symbol in it.[/quote]
You know as well as I do that this is NOT a provincial flag.
LOL. The ROC was replaced in 1949. Only die hards like yourself can’t accept that.
I am sure it was … 170 years ago when the opium was burning in nearby Guangzhou.
mr_boogie,
Beside play around with what actually occurred during the land reform period, which by the way the BSR landowners under the Japanese were actually “paid” first by the KMT government. Land speculation allowed for real estate value to go up because of the stability the KMT brought to Taiwan…
But let say your claim is true that WSR, like Tibetans in Taiwan, were the primary beneficiary of the land reform. The economy is not a close system. Rich WSR still need maids, drivers, tutors, food, etc. The money would “trickle down” to the poor BSR over time.
In fact the richest people in Taiwan are BSR, so it seems counter intuitive to claim all these WSR richest, when in fact it is BSR that hold most of the wealth in Taiwan.
[quote=“ludahai”]
Any other provinces have their own flag? BTW, even the PRC does not officially regard Tibet as a “province.”[/quote]
Well yes, in deference to Tibet’s large minority population, it’s regarded as an “autonomous region”-one of five such regions in China. They have the same status as a province though.
Depends who you ask of course. Blue leaning members feel it is the symbol of a democratic China. Green leaning members feel it is a symbol of oppression. PRC feel it is nothing more than the symbol of a renegade province(s).
Actually there are 24 million active ROC citizens that support the ROC administrative government. Unfortunately, that are many on this board that are not ROC citizens and are ignorant enough to believe that the ROC doesn’t exist.
Obviously the PRC is only willing to deal the government of Taiwan using the ROC framework. That in and of itself should motivate green supporters to understand the nuances of ROC history and the map. If not I don’t think any green leadership is ready to tackle the Strait Issue on behalf of Taiwan, and the ROC citizens will vote accordingly. The benchmark is a fluency in Chinese history and politics, not Minnan, these days for successful leadership.
[quote=“ABC”][quote=“ludahai”]
Any other provinces have their own flag? BTW, even the PRC does not officially regard Tibet as a “province.”[/quote]
Well yes, in deference to Tibet’s large minority population, it’s regarded as an “autonomous region”-one of five such regions in China. They have the same status as a province though.[/quote]
I know what the nomenclature used for Tibet, East Turkestan, SOuthern MOngolia, Ningxia Hui and Guangxi Zhuang. They are not really autonomous, but it sounds good. Nowever, there isn’t a provincial level entity (to my knowledge) in CHina that has a flag recognized by the central government except for the two SARs. 22 provinces, 5 ARs, 4 Municipalirites - no provincial level flags.
[quote=“ac_dropout”][Actually there are 24 million active ROC citizens that support the ROC administrative government. Unfortunately, that are many on this board that are not ROC citizens and are ignorant enough to believe that the ROC doesn’t exist.
[/quote]
24 million? Where is the extra 1 million?
Question: What is the legal mechanism for the transfer of sovreignty over Taiwan from Japan to the ROC?
It’s a chinese thing… we foreigners are just not smart enough to understand how the “legal mechanisms” work over here… if the KMT guys say it is, than it is… why do you need laws, when no one respects them?
[quote=“ludahai”][quote=“ac_dropout”][Actually there are 24 million active ROC citizens that support the ROC administrative government. Unfortunately, that are many on this board that are not ROC citizens and are ignorant enough to believe that the ROC doesn’t exist.
[/quote]
24 million? Where is the extra 1 million?
Question: What is the legal mechanism for the transfer of sovreignty over Taiwan from Japan to the ROC?[/quote]
Obviously from those women that keep claiming I have parental responsibility for their children… 
Even illegitimate kids can qualify for ROC citizenship without the ROC parent acknowledging the kid these days. Given Taiwanese tendency to wander the globe to disseminate our seed, I might be underestimating.
Sounds like someone is bitter the girls on Taiwan are not Japanese…
If in this warped green fantasy world where Taiwan still belongs to Japan does exist, why did the violent green protestors feel compelled to use a flag with a KMT symbol in it. To offend the Japanese?
[quote=“ludahai”]
I know what the nomenclature used for Tibet, East Turkestan, SOuthern MOngolia, Ningxia Hui and Guangxi Zhuang. They are not really autonomous, but it sounds good. Nowever, there isn’t a provincial level entity (to my knowledge) in CHina that has a flag recognized by the central government except for the two SARs. 22 provinces, 5 ARs, 4 Municipalirites - no provincial level flags.[/quote]
If the authorities want to, there could very well be a flag for each province in China- same way that every state in the USA has their own state flag that they fly next to the US flag. But I’m confused here. What difference does it make? Are you saying it makes a difference whether the provinces have their own provincial flags?
I think he’s just trying to be a contrarian on this point.
Since Tibet has a flag, it validates that province’s desire for independence. But consistency in the argument is not maintained since ROC provinces also have their own flag. A contradiction is reached.
So difficult being a TI supporter these days… :roflmao:
[quote=“ac_dropout”]I think he’s just trying to be a contrarian on this point.
Since Tibet has a flag, it validates that province’s desire for independence. But consistency in the argument is not maintained since ROC provinces also have their own flag. A contradiction is reached.
So difficult being a TI supporter these days… :roflmao:[/quote]
No, because the flag you so love is NOT the flag of Taiwan, it is the flag of the exiled regime that illegally appropriated the island of Taiwan.
Notice how you ignored my question about the legal mechanism of the transfer of sovereignty from Japan to the ROC.
It is so sad to see deep green TI supporters trying to prove Taiwan is still part of Japan. Good luck trying to prove that the warped green version of Taiwan actually exist in reality. Feel free to take up your argument with the GIO in Taiwan.
Everyone loves the ROC flag. I see it on fashionable leather bomber jacket on foriegner, requesting the be to their homeland if found in enemy territory. The DPP love the KMT symbol in the flag in the national flag, they wave if proudly when the PRC envoy come to visit Taiwan. KMT also love the flag, since it has their symbol in it, graphic designers don’t need to ask for other design elements when using the image.
only you say that Taiwan is part of Japan. According to the San Francisco Treaty, it ain’t, so WTF are you talking about. What we want to know is what signed treaty gives Taiwan to the ROC?
And the DPP doesn’t love the ROC flag, but, as a national symbol, they respected it more than the KMT when receiving a foreign dignitary. Put that into whatever perspective you want, even if it is in the “shove the ROC flag in the face of a PRC official”, but at least, you don’t see the DPP ordering the police to remove the national flag. Ma has already done it more than once. Probably, if Ma was the president when they were negotiating with China about the Olympic torch route, he would have accepted to remove (forcefully if needed) all the national flags from the route it was supposed to pass in the island.
One has to wonder why the DPP leadership is so confused over their lost of political power in ROC, Taiwan.
No one is going to vote a “hater” into office in a democracy.
Why does the DPP hate Taiwan so much?
Thank goodness there is still one political party left that loves ROC, Taiwan…warts and all.
ROC represents everything except Taiwan… specially it’s history. Why would someone who loves Taiwan, and fights for it’s recognition would love the ROC?
How many Taiwanese around the world feel frustrated and angry when being labeled as “Chinese”???
Not many that I know of. They all hang in and around "China"towns around the world. I’ve never heard of many "Taiwanese"town in all my travels.
However many pan-green/TI types there are I guess. Those are the people who insist on being called “Taiwanese” instead of “Chinese.” As for the rest, “Chinese” is more of cultural term, kind of like “华人 huaren” is more cultural and nationality-neutral. The normal Taiwanese folks aren’t going to feel angry about their Chinese heritage.
[quote]No, because the flag you so love is NOT the flag of Taiwan, it is the flag of the exiled regime that illegally appropriated the island of Taiwan.
Notice how you ignored my question about the legal mechanism of the transfer of sovereignty from Japan to the ROC.[/quote]
So I guess I’ll have to use Richard Hartzell’s arguement.
If sovereignty of Taiwan was not transferred to the ROC(and indeed it may not have been), what status then, would this leave Taiwan in? According to Hartzell and his well laid-out reasons, Taiwan would still be a US occupied territory.
So these are the only two choices here. Taiwan is either part of the ROC or part of the US. There’s no “TI/Taiwanese people get to decide” option here. That’s right, nowhere does it say that Taiwanese people get to decide on the independence issue. If Taiwan is still US territory, Taiwan’s sovereignty is still held by the US, thus it’s the US that gets to make the decision on Taiwan’s future. The US is unlikely to allow unilateral Taiwanese independence. In fact, according to Hartzell, the US made preparations(in the Shanghai Communique) to transfer Taiwan’s sovereignty to the PRC, as PRC has emerged as the sole legitimate government of China. Maybe that’s why the official US position on the question of Taiwan’s status is that it’s “undetermined”, ostensibly an issue to be worked out between the two sides of the strait in the future.
Frankly I don’t think most Taiwanese people are too interested in being a US territory. Why give away your autonomy to the US? Taiwan has de-facto, if not de-jure independence under the status quo. Not to mention this is the same “exile regime” that the DPP managed to rule for eight years. Better recognize the reality, that for all practical purposes, ROC and Taiwan are one and the same. That how I look at it.
Garbage.
Why not respect your own words? If you say something that makes sense, then maybe somebody will respect you someday, as unlikely as that may seem. I mean this in a positive way.
It’s sad to see intelligence wasted, and thrown into the garbage can, whether it be a Taiwanese president, or a poster on F.Com.
BTW, Taiwan wan suei!
TI is a noble dream, if perhaps a doomed one.
And I think that some weiguoren understand the spirit of Taiwan better than some Han posters on this forum. That’s because the idea of democracy came from the west. Maybe some Taiwanese (atypical) haven’t yet grasped what that really means.
If the ROC was taken seriously as a nation, then it would beat the PRC as having the worlds most major and minor land disputes.
So the problem with our local ZhongKuo-KuoMinTang stalwarts (which I refer to figuratively as the Chinese Nazi’s) is that their egos are bigger than all of China…
Also I concur with Hartzel’s general conclusion, but then there is also the right to Self-Determination as laid out 60 years ago in the Declaration of Human Rights. Essentially Taiwan should belong to the Taiwanese.