Woman chased down by police for displaying flag

Politics Taiwan Politics
41

[quote=“ABC-Law”]1. It is not necessary to talk about aborigines. This is about stolen assets in modern times. Let’s not get historic. Give back to the people of Taiwan what you have stolen.

  1. Democracy? What a crock of ____! This KMT led government is no longer a democracy! We are witnessing the downfall of democracy in Taiwan. They may pretend, but do they even care about the voices of ALL citizens or do they just care about the “blue” voices?

  2. I didnt’ say LTH or MYJ. I said the KMT and I didn’t say terrorize (but that may actually be a better word). OPPRESSION was the word I used and it appears that we are headed in that same direction under the current government.

MYJ squeaky clean? Yeah, maybe under the politically biased judicial system.[/quote]

I totally agree with you ABC LAW
My family line was once one of the wealthiest in Taiwan. We were still able to maintain it during the Japanese occupation. However, almost all of our assets were taken when the KMT came over. I said almost all, because they left us with the deeds to a run down village up in the mountains. Now this village has became a large town and the new KMT government is on the verge of acquiring this land without paying a single dime to our 106 families! They wanted us to get all 106 signatures from each head of the family(for us to keep the land and receive compensation and percentage of the tax revenues that is worth millions from the KMT party) without telling us who they were. After generations each family member has migrated all over the world, for example my family head is in the States.
My uncle was 28 years old and had acquired 86 signatures for the land and died of “natural consequences” and his body was ordered to be immediately cremated without an autopsy.
How do you die form natural causes at 28? He was so close to getting all the signatures, the timing was rather convenient don’t you think? ABC, one day we will have our justice (glares at ac-dropout).

42

Besides being a descendant of Japanese collaborators, who probably collected rent from average Taiwanese tenant farmers, you feel the redistribution of land to these average Taiwanese was a bad thing because in your mind it reduced your family’s historic wealth, which you think you were entitled to.

You know in the US in the overseas Chinese population, this same story plays out with the CCP, KMT, Japanese, and North Vietnamese as the “bad” government all the time. Forcing them to relocate to the land of barbarians, with 1 acre of land per house, and oppressive community boards complaining about the length of the grass on the lawn.

Well the upside is that now you are the modern Han. Americanized and perhaps Sinofied. With plenty of opportunities on both sides of the Pacific which makes millions look like peanuts in comparison. The question is of course have to prepared yourself to take advantage of these opportunities, or are you still upset with the KMT of sixty years ago.

You know like those Southern White that are still upset at Republicans for freeing the slaves and allowing the sequence of event that cumulated in Obama to become president elect.

Justice in terms of land reclamation?

I once had the opportunity to look at a family property on the mainland. It had been divided up for other families to live in by the CCP. There was a procedure if one had a deed the CCP would return the property to us. An uncle in the California had the deed. But looking at the state of the houses and the lifestyle we were use to, what would be the point? To become slumlords.

I also had an opportunity to look at some family property in Taiwan. Four brothers are still fighting for control of the land and what to do with it. Eventually it will become my fight when the brothers start dying off. Do I even care, really? Is a plot dirt so important to shatter family and community?

But if your hatred of the KMT comes from land reclamation which blinded you to support the DPP. I strongly advise you to reconsider how you judge the political parties in Taiwan. Because I don’t think the DPP is helping anyone reclaim land either.

Beside the land reclamation process in Taiwan was done with consultation of the US advisor and lauded as one corner stones to Taiwan rapid economic growth. In other words you can blame the US for that policy.

My Taiwanese grandfather died in his early 30’s due to hepatitis and heavy drinking. Leaving my 6th grade drop out grandmother and 5 children to fend for themselves. Should I blame the Japanese or KMT government for not treating this preventable disease and not having an AA program?

43

hepatitis and heavy drinking are considered natural causes in AC world… one more revelation…

And I read that most of the land problems was that, because the Japanese owners left, many “pro-new-government” thieves went in and took them without due process.

44

[quote=“ac_dropout”]Besides being a descendant of Japanese collaborators, who probably collected rent from average Taiwanese tenant farmers, you feel the redistribution of land to these average Taiwanese was a bad thing because in your mind it reduced your family’s historic wealth, which you think you were entitled to.

You know in the US in the overseas Chinese population, this same story plays out with the CCP, KMT, Japanese, and North Vietnamese as the “bad” government all the time. Forcing them to relocate to the land of barbarians, with 1 acre of land per house, and oppressive community boards complaining about the length of the grass on the lawn.

Well the upside is that now you are the modern Han. Americanized and perhaps Sinofied. With plenty of opportunities on both sides of the Pacific which makes millions look like peanuts in comparison. The question is of course have to prepared yourself to take advantage of these opportunities, or are you still upset with the KMT of sixty years ago.

You know like those Southern White that are still upset at Republicans for freeing the slaves and allowing the sequence of event that cumulated in Obama to become president elect.

Justice in terms of land reclamation?

I once had the opportunity to look at a family property on the mainland. It had been divided up for other families to live in by the CCP. There was a procedure if one had a deed the CCP would return the property to us. An uncle in the California had the deed. But looking at the state of the houses and the lifestyle we were use to, what would be the point? To become slumlords.

I also had an opportunity to look at some family property in Taiwan. Four brothers are still fighting for control of the land and what to do with it. Eventually it will become my fight when the brothers start dying off. Do I even care, really? Is a plot dirt so important to shatter family and community?

But if your hatred of the KMT comes from land reclamation which blinded you to support the DPP. I strongly advise you to reconsider how you judge the political parties in Taiwan. Because I don’t think the DPP is helping anyone reclaim land either.

Beside the land reclamation process in Taiwan was done with consultation of the US advisor and lauded as one corner stones to Taiwan rapid economic growth. In other words you can blame the US for that policy.

My Taiwanese grandfather died in his early 30’s due to hepatitis and heavy drinking. Leaving my 6th grade drop out grandmother and 5 children to fend for themselves. Should I blame the Japanese or KMT government for not treating this preventable disease and not having an AA program?[/quote]

AC, how can you compare slavery to stealing of property? Also, the term “reclamation” means that the people doing the “reclamation” once had rights to the property, thus the use of “re”. The KMT, on the run from the mainland, never had rights to property in this country, thus what they did would be considered stealing (or forceful taking).

45

I don’t think government needs to “steal” property it’s called eminent domain, compulsory purchase, resumption/compulsory acquisition, expropriation.

The government has a right to take property from citizens with proper compensation without the consent of the owner. You can argue what is proper compensation, but doesn’t diminish the fact the government has the authority to do this.

Not many people would try to argue land redistribution after WWII was a bad policy. On the contrary most scholars, felt it was integral for the economic explosion that occur after WWII in Taiwan.

I’m not comparing land redistribution to slavery. I’m comparing the liberation of Taiwan’s tenant farmers from the few land owners under Japanese occupation to the liberation of Black slaves in the America South.

Particularly lincolnunit’s sentiments towards the KMT is similar to White Southern American views towards the Republican Party for freeing the slaves (aka. Southern Democrats). White Southerns hated Republican led Reconstruction of the South after the US civil war. Just as land owners during Japanese occupation hated the KMT for land redistribution. In both cases, neither group saw the benefits that their personal loss leading to the greater good for the nation.

46

[quote=“ac_dropout”]I don’t think government needs to “steal” property it’s called eminent domain, compulsory purchase, resumption/compulsory acquisition, expropriation.

The government has a right to take property from citizens with proper compensation without the consent of the owner. You can argue what is proper compensation, but doesn’t diminish the fact the government has the authority to do this.

Not many people would try to argue land redistribution after WWII was a bad policy. On the contrary most scholars, felt it was integral for the economic explosion that occur after WWII in Taiwan.

I’m not comparing land redistribution to slavery. I’m comparing the liberation of Taiwan’s tenant farmers from the few land owners under Japanese occupation to the liberation of Black slaves in the America South.

Particularly lincolnunit’s sentiments towards the KMT is similar to White Southern American views towards the Republican Party for freeing the slaves (aka. Southern Democrats). White Southerns hated Republican led Reconstruction of the South after the US civil war. Just as land owners during Japanese occupation hated the KMT for land redistribution. In both cases, neither group saw the benefits that their personal loss leading to the greater good for the nation.[/quote]

Not true. Most people in the south generally feel that land reform was a positive thing overall and good for development of the country. After all, they got money, (if not exactly a fair price), and most invested the funds received in some kind of business or light industry whereas their like across the straits merely got a bullet. As you might know, most in the south were tenent farmers, not landowners - so why would the south be so, "green’ then? The fly in the ointment came with how the KMT used local institutions like the Nong Hui, Yu Hui and the sugar plantations as political patronage and the general levels of corruption. I couldn’t be bothered to dredge up the studies, but this is what the economic research was saying.

47

I don’t think it is fair to say the KMT got the majority of the people’s support right after 1945 either. Within Taiwan’s population there were many who didn’t like the KMT who might not have been land-owners. Taiwanese Intellectuals felt they should have been the ones to occupy mid-government position during the transition voiced their opposition. Taiwanese individuals strongly aligned with the Japanese who believe “Chinese inferiority” war propoganda also were not happy with the transition.

There were even KMT members that were not happy with the KMT due to personal experience and thier immediate family would never vote KMT ever again.

So there are number of reasons why the KMT would attract opposition, and it is a natural political process for the ruling party to be the center of attention for an opposition.

Personally why I think the south is deep green is strongly centered around the fact of subethnic Han division and distance from the capital. Hoklo in the south saw the KMT were making alliance with Hakka in the North. Hakka were precieved to have been given preference to “iron rice bowl” mid government jobs. The best positions for Cops, school teachers, rail workers, postal workers, etc were all seen given to either a Hakka or a WSR. Even in popular entertainment it is joked around that there were no BSR star for quite sometime. Over the course of a few decades, these percieved social inequalities of course led to resentment and manifest itself in the dirty whisper campaigns of today’s politics.

For the most part the Taiwan Independence Movement I feel is the corruption of KMT anti-communist teaching, Japanese anti-Chinese sentiments, and Hoklo-chauvanism for the formation of a Hoklo Nation or a Taiwanese Nation.

Of course there are fragmentations among the greens on how much weight to put on each of the aspects that make up the TI movement. It is even entertaining to watch as the old guards of the DPP come out to support CSB, much to the dismay of Violent Tsai, that once again Hanji (BSR) are being oppressed. Granted CSB is no longer in the DPP, but it is good to see subethnic division are still alive and kicking in the older generation.

I understand the Hoklo pride when CSB became president. I listened for hours as my father and his side of the family when on and on about how “one of our own” had made it. But the mounting evidence against CSB makes it kind of difficult to continue on the BSR pride argument on why CSB is being treated the way he is now.

48

[quote=“ac_dropout”]Besides being a descendant of Japanese collaborators, who probably collected rent from average Taiwanese tenant farmers, you feel the redistribution of land to these average Taiwanese was a bad thing because in your mind it reduced your family’s historic wealth, which you think you were entitled to.

You know in the US in the overseas Chinese population, this same story plays out with the CCP, KMT, Japanese, and North Vietnamese as the “bad” government all the time. Forcing them to relocate to the land of barbarians, with 1 acre of land per house, and oppressive community boards complaining about the length of the grass on the lawn.

Well the upside is that now you are the modern Han. Americanized and perhaps Sinofied. With plenty of opportunities on both sides of the Pacific which makes millions look like peanuts in comparison. The question is of course have to prepared yourself to take advantage of these opportunities, or are you still upset with the KMT of sixty years ago.

You know like those Southern White that are still upset at Republicans for freeing the slaves and allowing the sequence of event that cumulated in Obama to become president elect.

Justice in terms of land reclamation?

I once had the opportunity to look at a family property on the mainland. It had been divided up for other families to live in by the CCP. There was a procedure if one had a deed the CCP would return the property to us. An uncle in the California had the deed. But looking at the state of the houses and the lifestyle we were use to, what would be the point? To become slumlords.

I also had an opportunity to look at some family property in Taiwan. Four brothers are still fighting for control of the land and what to do with it. Eventually it will become my fight when the brothers start dying off. Do I even care, really? Is a plot dirt so important to shatter family and community?

But if your hatred of the KMT comes from land reclamation which blinded you to support the DPP. I strongly advise you to reconsider how you judge the political parties in Taiwan. Because I don’t think the DPP is helping anyone reclaim land either.

Beside the land reclamation process in Taiwan was done with consultation of the US advisor and lauded as one corner stones to Taiwan rapid economic growth. In other words you can blame the US for that policy.

My Taiwanese grandfather died in his early 30’s due to hepatitis and heavy drinking. Leaving my 6th grade drop out grandmother and 5 children to fend for themselves. Should I blame the Japanese or KMT government for not treating this preventable disease and not having an AA program?[/quote]

“Besides being a descendant of Japanese collaborators, who probably collected rent from average Taiwanese tenant farmers, you feel the redistribution of land to these average Taiwanese was a bad thing because in your mind it reduced your family’s historic wealth, which you think you were entitled to.”

Okay your first line was rather rude, but if I’m not mistaken you have nothing to do with Taiwanese tenant farmers so you have no right in that respect. These redistribution of the land did not go to the Taiwanese people, unless you consider the chinese nationalists who fled to Taiwan Taiwanese. Wouldn’t you feel like you were just duped if you found out that someone just took your inheritance? Nontheless I have no plans into becoming a rich person or anything like that, nor do I care about acquiring the hundred or so signatures, I just want a stable and quiet life.

And once again you keep calling us Barbarians. What? You think that we lived in huts and used sticks and spears?
Alright I’ll take that, but from now on I’ll just deem you people as wusses.
I mean afterall, you wusses were getting your butts kicked by us Barbarians in WWII. The japanese used Taiwanese as frontline infantry during the fight against the chinese

49

lincolnunit,

I apologize if you feel I was being rude. I’m being sarcastic about how people percieve groups. I commonly refer to myself as the 美奴, because I’m the prettiest of them all. Proud descendent of a 日奴 and 英奴… :laughing:

We can all agree there were many groups in conflict in Taiwan shortly after WWII. Individually speak people change sides all the time. LTH was the expert at this. Under the Japanese, he was a Japanese. Under the KMT, he was uhmm, still Japanese with a Chinese facade… :slight_smile:

Most of the land redistribution did go to the BSR of Taiwan. Of course if you’re near a city or an area of with a high concentration of WSR civilians it might of went to WSR. CKS even had policies about how career soldiers couldn’t aquire land in Taiwan, because he didn’t want them to settle, ever hoping to invade the Mainland again.

I myself, by strick interpretation am the son of a Taiwanese BSR farmer from Yilan.

Isn’t it liberating not to be tied down to the past to carry on a family cause, which you might or might not agree with?

I can understand being upset over it. But given the choice of MYJ or Frank Hsieh at the polls, I wouldn’t use it as an emotional motivation to why I feel MYJ is was less qualified than Frank Hsieh. Or why the KMT has a better platform for addressing the Strait Issue than the DPP.

I mean the KMT did offer an option with collection of signatures. Can’t someone else continue with the signature collection?

I’m just poking fun at what Taiwanese call the 老外 in the USA, since you mentioned you settled in the States. Sometime families find better lives in the States, but yet still keep complain about how much better it was in the Old Country. I just find it funny when I bump into a bunch of Taiwanese in the USA driving luxury brand cars, kids in a multitude of extracurricular activities, bilingual and bicultural, going on and on about the cluless “foreigners” in the USA, and how much better it was back in the Old Country. Makes me wonder just who the “outsiders” in post-racial USA are these days.

I think you are touching upon why the deep green TI Localization movement never took off in Taiwan. I don’t think they even know how inclusive or not inclusive politically the term Taiwanese should be anymore. A lot of people are turn off by the support for CSB just because he is Taiwanese.

50

What does that have to do with stealing an inheritance?

Then why not just say that? Why make a comment that someone can take as a personal comment about them?

You’re avoiding what he said. He was talking about land only going to the Chinese who moved with the KMT, rather than the people who had been living in Taiwan for long before. That is obvious even to me, so it should be to you. Don’t play dumb.

51

That’s not true at all. There are a lot BSR land owners in Taiwan still.

52

Well, a lot of WSR got lands and sold them quickly to make a buck, and moved on.

Not to speak about the fact that many people lost a lot of money with the change from Taiwan Dollar to NTD, being that the inflationary prices were mainly cause by KMT corruption, hoarding and so on.

53

Most economist blame the Chinese Civil War that resumed in 1945 as the main reason for inflation of the Old Taiwan Dollar, and any other currency backed by the ROC. The conversion to NTD was just a foreshadowing clue to the eventual lost of the mainland as the reserves where moved to Taiwan during the retreat.

Would you be happy if Taiwan remained in the Taiwan Yen system implemented by Japan?

54

Question:
What is BSR and WSR?

55

Answer:
BSR = 本省人
WSR = 外省人

For example. Tibetans in Taiwan are 外省人. The Tibetan Flag is a 外省 Flag.
As a counter example. AC_dropout is a 本省人. His views represents the typical blue leaning moderate 本省人.

Mr_boogie claims that WSR, like Tibetans for example, own most of private land in Taiwan. When he knows full well the vast majority of property owners in Taiwan are BSR and their descendents, like AC_Dropout.

56

[quote=“ac_dropout”]Answer:
BSR = 本省人
WSR = 外省人

For example. Tibetans in Taiwan are 外省人. The Tibetan Flag is a 外省 Flag.
As a counter example. AC_dropout is a 本省人. His views represents the typical blue leaning moderate 本省人.

Mr_boogie claims that WSR, like Tibetans for example, own most of private land in Taiwan. When he knows full well the vast majority of property owners in Taiwan are BSR and their descendents, like AC_Dropout.[/quote]

Any other provinces have their own flag? BTW, even the PRC does not officially regard Tibet as a “province.”

57

Taiwan province and Fujian province have their own flag. With a beautiful KMT symbol in it.

When did we start caring about how the PRC administer the Mainland. Pull out an official ROC map and lo and behold Tibet province. With about 36 other provinces that WSR are suppose to have been from before being invited to Taiwan province.

Next you’ll be telling me Hong Kong is not “fragrant” at all.

58

[quote=“ac_dropout”]Answer:
BSR = 本省人
WSR = 外省人

For example. Tibetans in Taiwan are 外省人. The Tibetan Flag is a 外省 Flag.
As a counter example. AC_dropout is a 本省人. His views represents the typical blue leaning moderate 本省人.

Mr_boogie claims that WSR, like Tibetans for example, own most of private land in Taiwan. When he knows full well the vast majority of property owners in Taiwan are BSR and their descendents, like AC_Dropout.[/quote]

can’t read that well, can you provide me that in english ping ying please hehe :slight_smile:

59

BSR = ben shen ren = 本省人
WSR = wai shen ren = 外省人

60

AC, as I said, most WSR sold the land they got to BSR and moved on to other business. It is normal for the BSR to be the biggest landowners here, as they are, probably, capable of doing a better job on them than the BSR. As we all know, the farmers stayed back in China backing the communists, and only the elites came to Taiwan.