Methane is very flammable, nesspa?
A fine example of lèse-mad-xiao-jie
Eh?
Seriously.
If anybody is up for suggesting actual logically-connectable arguable points to put into a letter to the editor or op-ed piece for, say, the Liberty Times, I’ll “write” it in my lovely “foreigner Chinese” and send it off. I’d love to have a go at them with a few Google hits for “forget you” as a well-used phrase (they do exist) plus the three letters “Ph.D” and my specialization in Sociolinguistics at the bottom. Three letters, former NTU teacher, licensed university assoc prof in their country, native speaker, student of Deborah Tannen [have to see if her books have been translated into Chinese yet] and all-round linguistic Lone Ranger…hoo boy!
(On a side note, linguistics geek PhDs are actually paid to testify on this kind of thing in court. The difference is that in the US, they actually try to get people who are experts on the matter at hand, or the experts in other matters don’t accept things they don’t know enough about. There was/is some lawsuit going on in the US about employees at the Chinese language national newspaper, and I ended up translating a bunch of articles from Chinese into English. The lawyers then wanted me to give “an opinion” about whether these articles were “complicated enough” to be features, or news, or something. I forget the details. The upshot of it was I tried to “educate” them about how looking at one person’s English translation of articles written in Chinese wasn’t going to prove diddly-squat about the writer’s skills in writing for the Chinese press. (I charged them for the phone consultation, though, at a good fair hourly rate. Took an hour to get it through their heads.)
Stimpy,what in god’s name are you talking about? Have you even read this thread? “Forget you” IS a correct construction and it DOES make sense in this context. It is proper American English usage. The judges were completely, totally incorrect. What makes this so ludicrous is the pomposity of the judges who based the heart of their decision on their supposed knowledge of a language none of them speak at anywhere near native level.
I also discuss this case below, and several people have contributed to the discussion:
http://www.princeroy.org/?p=482
[quote=“ironlady”]Seriously.
If anybody is up for suggesting actual logically-connectable arguable points to put into a letter to the editor or op-ed piece for, say, the Liberty Times, I’ll “write” it in my lovely “foreigner Chinese” and send it off. [/quote]
There is so much wrong with this whole thing that I think I’ll just skip to the end and suggest that if they really wanted to know if the woman might have said “Forget you” they would look at the situation and decide whether or not “Forget you” is something that a native speaker might say in that context. Assuming that there were only two parties to the incident and that both were of sound mind I mean. And assuming that the listener was actually able to distinguish between “Forget you” and “fuck you” above the traffic noise and what have you. This is glossing over all the nonsense about whether “forget you” is grammatically correct or not etc.
On a side note: They trained monkees to chase the dogs off the Tianmu trail but it didn’t work. Too bad.
What’s this bullshit? I don’t fuckin’ care! It don’t matter to Jesus. But you’re not foolin’ me, man. You might fool the fucks in the league office, but you don’t fool Jesus. This bush league psyche-out stuff. Laughable, man - ha ha! I would have fucked you in the ass Saturday. I fuck you in the ass next Wednesday instead. Wooo! You got a date Wednesday, baby!
She should have said that instead.
I’m not suggesting anything would actually happen, only that we can get our opinions into the Chinese press, more than likely, and make them look at bit foolish if we’re good enough at it. Just for fun.
Fun? Fun, lady. If I had wanted fun, I’d have gone to Vegas.
Stimpy,what in god’s name are you talking about? Have you even read this thread? “Forget you” IS a correct construction and it DOES make sense in this context. It is proper American English usage. The judges were completely, totally incorrect. What makes this so ludicrous is the pomposity of the judges who based the heart of their decision on their supposed knowledge of a language none of them speak at anywhere near native level.
I also discuss this case below, and several people have contributed to the discussion:
http://www.princeroy.org/?p=482[/quote][/quote]
Actually, the issue is whether or not the woman actually said what she was accused of saying. In all likelihood she did and she got a couple hundred USD fine for it. It’s a silly charge, but hardly persecution. The forget you defence is just that, a defence. It may, in rare instances, be correct construction. In fact, in English, just about anything can be a correct construction. Poets and philosophers bend rules and create new rules all the time. That different combinations are possible doesn’t make them probable in all situations, often used or even recognizeable to most native speakers of the language. I think what gets some people riled is that a Taiwanese committed the hubris of making a ruling concerning the English language. I believe fuck you is one of the few English constructions almost universally recognized among Taiwanese. I really don’t think that the person on the receiving end misunderstood, that the judge and tutor/consultant missed the mark totally in their assessment or that damages were wrongfully awarded. I seriously doubt the woman said “forget you,” even given that it is a possible construction.
Is this frivolous? Yes. Do I think that the case should have ever been brought before a judge? No. It’s stupid, especially considering the society right outside our doors. Can’t find better cases to try? Really? However, come right down to it, the woman most likely did say the words she was accused of saying and a small claims judgement was awarded.
The media circus and the foreigner fetishism behind it is more troubling by far than the case itself.
‘Forget you!’ is VERY VERY VERY common in the US. I’ve heard it on TV, Movies, and conversation. Its not an insult, just means you are tired of talking to that person.
‘Fuck you!’ Is not an insult. It doesn’t really mean anything. If you replace fuck with ‘sex’ you can see it makes no sense ‘sex you’ who is doing the sex? me? you? Eh???
Actually forget you and fuck you are both grammatically weird so I don’t think this issue makes any sense in court. An American judge who took Japanese in high school would call in a Japanese expert in a case like this in the US I’d hope, not just use his crappy skills.
I am going to use this discussion in a class with a lawyer tomorrow so I actually thought about it and came to the conclusion that over blown grandiosity aside the judge actually almost saved herself with this…
If a number of credible witnesses heard the woman say “fuck” then the judge would really have no reason to conclude that she had said anything else. On the other hand if the incident occured in a noisy parking lot, or if the witnesses didn’t in fact speak a spit of English, were deaf, momentarily deranged or whatever then their testimony would of course be of less value. If there were only two parties then it would be a question of credibility. None of this was covered in the article so whatever judgment we come to about this case is based on insufficient details.
If an expression is in use, which this one is, then of course it lends credibility to the notion that somebody did use it especially if it fits the context, which this one does apparently, so the judge really got that part backasswards. She said that “somebody somewhere might use the phrase” but somebody somewhere might say anything and if it is a phrase that means people use it or have used long enough to be considered “a phrase.” It was her misfortune to pick a phrase that people use all the time, thereby providing bored English teachers the world over a chance to point out her shortcomings in the areas of logic and linguistics. It is generally a mistake for second langauge learners to argue with a native speaker about what is correct usage. Non- native speakers can argue about such things but they better be right or they look incredibly ignorant and arrogant. It is a bad combination.
It really does boil down to a question of pronunciation and witnesses though. Although it must be admitted this was not covered in the article either.
My apologies for actually thinking about this but I am going to teach it tomorrow so I thought I better. 
If I’m missing something I’d love to hear about it. Thanks.
[quote=“Stimpy”]
Actually, the issue is whether or not the woman actually said what she was accused of saying. In all likelihood she did and she got a couple hundred USD fine for it. It’s a silly charge, but hardly persecution. The forget you defence is just that, a defence. It may, in rare instances, be correct construction. In fact, in English, just about anything can be a correct construction.。。。
That different combinations are possible doesn’t make them probable in all situations, often used or even recognizeable to most native speakers of the language.
I really don’t think that the person on the receiving end misunderstood, that the judge and tutor/consultant missed the mark totally in their assessment or that damages were wrongfully awarded. I seriously doubt the woman said “forget you,” even given that it is a possible construction.[/quote]
No, this is not a ‘rare instance’ of a correct construction. In the context in which the American claimed to have said it, it is entirely appropriate and quite common.
This is a plausible response in this kind of situation. Any native speaker of American English would recognize it as a valid usage.
Given that the judges based their decision primarily on their incorrect assumption that “Forget you” is not a legitimate expression, they most certainly did ‘miss the mark’. At best you have a ‘she said vs. she said’, where one of the litigants is not a native speaker of the language at issue, there were no witnesses, and the two were already engaged in an acrimonious legal dispute.
Explain to me how ‘forget you’ or ‘forget it’ is insulting.
Its the same as saying ‘i’m not listening, end of conversation.’ maybe its rude but I know its not an insult.
Bingo on the highlighted bit, but do we know for sure there were no witnesses? It wasn’t mentioned in the article but I wonder if a newspaper can be trusted to mess up a good story with the facts. I just dunno, you know…
Explain to me how ‘forget you’ or ‘forget it’ is insulting.
Its the same as saying ‘i’m not listening, end of conversation.’ maybe its rude but I know its not an insult.[/quote]
Perhaps you need to be a bit more existential in your struggle to understand this complex question. Imagine if the universe said “Forget you” or your mom. How would you feel then?
[quote=“bob”]
Bingo on the highlighted bit do we know for sure there were no witnesses? It wasn’t mentioned in the article but I wonder if a newspaper can be trusted to mess up a good story with the facts. I just dunno, you know…[/quote]
I think if there were witnesses the judges’ decision would’ve included their testimony. In any event, the newspaper story didn’t mention anything about witnesses. Since this occured at the entrance to a hospital, there likely were not, and even if there were, did they understand English, and if so, how well?
Anyway, I deleted that bit about about forget it being insulting. Not so temporary stupididty I suffer from unfortunately.
OK I am still a little confused here actually.
The judge said that “forget it” is a valid construction but that “forget you” is not. On the basis of this she concludes that a native speaker would not say “forget you.” Wrong, but so far so good. The problem I’m having is that if she concludes this then it isn’t just a question of whether or not the person said “fuck” or “forget” it is also a question, in the judges mind, as to whether the person said “you” or “it.” “You” and “it” don’t sound much alike either, except in Chinese. Perhaps that is what is at the root of our dilema. Are we sure this happened in English?
Explain to me how ‘forget you’ or ‘forget it’ is insulting.
Its the same as saying ‘i’m not listening, end of conversation.’ maybe its rude but I know its not an insult.[/quote]
Perhaps you need to be a bit more existential in your struggle to understand this complex question. Imagine if the universe said “Forget you” or your mom. How would you feel then?[/quote]
The universe can talk? lol
Well I think I know what you’re getting at - like I wouldn’t exist? But how is that insulting? Its more threatening than insulting. I don’t find ‘forget you’ to be insulting OR threatening.