Taiwan: independence/(re)unification/status quo/referendum?


#501

Taiwan never had the type of links that Ryuku had to Japan. Taiwan is also far more populous than Okinawa enabling it to be more self sufficient. While Japan might not happily ‘give up’ Taiwan they would propably do so in terms of modern democratic Japan (with defense pact too) faced with outside pressures.

It’s different than China. Chinese would never let go of Taiwan but Japan could because its obviously not part of Japan’s history or core culture and occupied by a different race with a large population and distinctly different language and culture.


#502

[quote=“headhonchoII”]Taiwan never had the type of links that Ryuku had to Japan. Taiwan is also far more populous than Okinawa enabling it to be more self sufficient. While Japan might not happily ‘give up’ Taiwan they would propably do so in terms of modern democratic Japan (with defense pact too) faced with outside pressures.

It’s different than China. Chinese would never let go of Taiwan but Japan could because its obviously not part of Japan’s history or core culture and occupied by a different race with a large population and distinctly different language and culture.[/quote]

Taiwan had 50 years of links to Japan, links that would have continued had Taiwan not been given back to Chinese control. My grandmother was 2nd generation under Japanese rule and she was already speaking Japanese exclusively at home, not just at school. They were becoming Japanese.

Japan was a democracy in 1972.


#503

taiwanpedia.culture.tw/en/content?ID=3803

Kominka Movement.


#504

[quote=“Dirt”][quote=“headhonchoII”]Taiwan never had the type of links that Ryuku had to Japan. Taiwan is also far more populous than Okinawa enabling it to be more self sufficient. While Japan might not happily ‘give up’ Taiwan they would propably do so in terms of modern democratic Japan (with defense pact too) faced with outside pressures.

It’s different than China. Chinese would never let go of Taiwan but Japan could because its obviously not part of Japan’s history or core culture and occupied by a different race with a large population and distinctly different language and culture.[/quote]

Taiwan had 50 years of links to Japan, links that would have continued had Taiwan not been given back to Chinese control. My grandmother was 2nd generation under Japanese rule and she was already speaking Japanese exclusively at home, not just at school. They were becoming Japanese.

Japan was a democracy in 1972.[/quote]

50 years is nothing really. While people did learn Japanese the vast majority of the locals main language was still Taiwanese and Hakka. Their underlying culture hadn’t really changed and they still learned Chinese script.

The Ryuku are a group of very small islands, Taiwan was more like the US taking over the Phillipines. In the end the Phillipines became independent but they were influenced by the Americans.

After WWII there was a huge push for colonial countries worldwide to achieve independence. I believe strongly that a large segment of the local population would have supported this.

You also have to factor in that a rising China would also kick up a huge stink about Taiwan being part of Japan. That’s the unknown factor as to how it would play out. Would they support an independent Taiwan or would they insist on joining the mainland, insisting on joining the mainland would alienate a lot of locals just like the situation today!


#505

Did you read the link I posted? Because you’re just speculating. The link is history, what was happening and what was being done in Taiwan under Japan.


#506

Cultural oppression at its best. At least ethnic Chinese have a shared identity. But Japan? 100% foreign in Taiwan.


#507

[quote=“Dirt”]http://taiwanpedia.culture.tw/en/content?ID=3803

Kominka Movement.[/quote]

Japan had been taken over by the military at this stage and was heading into a war footing.
Japan after WWII was very different. They didn’t have any good justification for holding onto Taiwan and Taiwanese patently do not have Japanese roots and were never going to be seen as proper Japanese.
I’ve given the example of the Philippines which I think has a similar colonial history but was able to break away after WWII. Of course Korea was also taken over by Japan and also broke away after WWII , these would have been obvious examples of Taiwanese to ultimately follow. Of course not everybody would have wanted independence or to unite with the mainland, it would have been a plurality of voices just like you see today.


#508

One: We can’t blame Taiwan’s lack of formal recognition on Western powers. They were given an ultimatum: Who is China? Taipei or Beijing? Obviously, most rational leaders would choose the latter. If the blame falls on anyone, it’s old Chiang, who refused allowing other countries to recognize both Taipei and Beijing at a time when Beijing could have done little to stop it.

Two: Okinawa isn’t exactly a happy place as far as I can tell. Whatever ethnic tensions continue to exist aside, there is a lot of uncomfortable back-and-forth over the US military presence there. Do you think Taiwan would be any better if it were a part of Japan? Given its proximity to China, it would basically have become a giant US base with a local Japanese-speaking, Matsu-worshipping population. It wouldn’t have seen the “economic miracle” that rapid and unyielding industrialization brought; the population would be a fraction of today’s 23 million, and doubtlessly a large portion of them would be transplants from Japan. Pure speculation, but I think the benefits of being part of Japan would outweigh the drive for independence.

“Taiwan, Japan” would be so greatly different from Taiwan today that I don’t know if all of the anti-Chinese factions reminiscing about the good ol’ days would really be happy with what they got.


#509

At that time, yes…

Yeah, a guy who thought he could bend history to suit his vision. But he’s passed away, and things have changed majorly since, haven’t they? :slight_smile:


#510

[quote=“headhonchoII”]
I’ve given the example of the Philippines which I think has a similar colonial history but was able to break away after WWII. Of course Korea was also taken over by Japan and also broke away after WWII , these would have been obvious examples of Taiwanese to ultimately follow. Of course not everybody would have wanted independence or to unite with the mainland, it would have been a plurality of voices just like you see today.[/quote]

Philippines is a bad example as before the Spanish and American colonial periods Filipinos were already a distinct ethnic group.

Except for the Aboriginal people, Taiwanese have prior to 1895 been Chinese and subjects of the Ming and Qing Dynasties. I cannot recall any movement prior to the 20th Century that demanded independence for Taiwan or promoted a local, distinctly Taiwanese identity. People lived their lives first as part of Fujian Province and later Taiwan Province - Beijing was far away and nobody really cared about the Taiwanese. Taiwanese have not been deprived of statehood o anything else.

Filipinos however were forced into a colonial regime and did not rule their homeland themselves. Im fact their situation could was more that of Taiwanese Aboriginals than that of the so called “Taiwanese” (=> ethnic Chinese).

Korea on the other hand is a far more fitting comparison.

And regarding your last point: 100% correct! It bothers me that some people claim in 1945 or 1947 or 1949 Taiwanese wanted independence and that there was some kind of independence struggle.
Taiwanese sent elected delegates to the constitutional referendum in 1947 - there must have been quite a few locals who were pro-Chinese integration.

Besides, people should not mistake the democratization that took part inside the KMT and government agencies with the protests on the street by pro-DPP activists. The KMT could have just as well chosen a “Beijing solution” and let tanks roll through Taipei. Yet by itself the KMT chose democracy. It’s not like there was anything to win: recognition for the ROC was already gome by the 1970s and as we can see, even free and open presidential elections that took part since the 1990s did not compel any major country to recognize Taiwan.


#511

The best chance for Taiwan independence is China losing a war with Japan. There’s not enough political pressure for the U.S. to engage in a major war with China over Taiwan unless it’s a secondary response while assisting regional allies, namely Japan. In my opinion


#512

[quote=“headhonchoII”][quote=“Dirt”]http://taiwanpedia.culture.tw/en/content?ID=3803

Kominka Movement.[/quote]

Japan had been taken over by the military at this stage and was heading into a war footing.
Japan after WWII was very different. They didn’t have any good justification for holding onto Taiwan and Taiwanese patently do not have Japanese roots and were never going to be seen as proper Japanese.
I’ve given the example of the Philippines which I think has a similar colonial history but was able to break away after WWII. Of course Korea was also taken over by Japan and also broke away after WWII , these would have been obvious examples of Taiwanese to ultimately follow. Of course not everybody would have wanted independence or to unite with the mainland, it would have been a plurality of voices just like you see today.[/quote]

I can think of one good reason for Japan to do everything it can to hold onto Taiwan:

To remind China that Japan beat them before.

Edit: Also, Korea is not a good example because they have a centuries old enmity beginning at least from when Kato Kiyomasa invaded to today, Koreans were blowing themselves up (Korean Jihad) to kill high ranking Japanese soldiers and politicians during the Japanese occupation of Korea. Taiwan had no hard feelings toward Japan.


#513

[quote=“Dirt”]

Edit: Also, Korea is not a good example because they have a centuries old enmity beginning at least from when Kato Kiyomasa invaded to today, Koreans were blowing themselves up (Korean Jihad) to kill high ranking Japanese soldiers and politicians during the Japanese occupation of Korea. Taiwan had no hard feelings toward Japan.[/quote]

“Korean Jihad” is a strange term. Never heard of it before. The Korean resistance was 1) exclusively domestic 2) not motivated by religion.

Also, you should read on the Taiwanese resistance against the Japanese occupation. Both ethnic Chinese and Aboriginals rebelled against Japan. The Japanese occupation was not voluntary and tens of thousands of Taiwan residents lost their lives while resisting against Japanese Imperialism.


#514

Yep the Japanese didn’t just roll into Taiwan on a magic carpet, there was stiff resistance from local Taiwanese and many died.
The aboriginals also rebelled against the Japanese.


#515

At that time, yes…

Yeah, a guy who thought he could bend history to suit his vision. But he’s passed away, and things have changed majorly since, haven’t they? :slight_smile:[/quote]

Things haven’t changed because the small window of opportunity passed a long time ago. Before China’s economic rise, it could have a temper tantrum and the world would largely ignore it. Now the entire planet basically bows to the whims of the Communist Party, especially on “internal” issues like the Taiwan relationship. If Old Chiang or his son, slightly less-old Chiang, had actually embraced the idea of Taiwan becoming an independent nation instead of implementing a police state and arresting or shooting everyone, there would probably be a seat for Taipei in the United Nations today. By the time Lee Teng-hui, the first “本土” president took office, it was already too late for that.


#516

[quote=“headhonchoII”]Yep the Japanese didn’t just roll into Taiwan on a magic carpet, there was stiff resistance from local Taiwanese and many died.
The aboriginals also rebelled against the Japanese.[/quote]

Careful, now. Soon you will be calling it the Japanese Occupation Era. :wink:


#517

[quote=“Mucha Man”][quote=“headhonchoII”]Yep the Japanese didn’t just roll into Taiwan on a magic carpet, there was stiff resistance from local Taiwanese and many died.
The aboriginals also rebelled against the Japanese.[/quote]

Careful, now. Soon you will be calling it the Japanese Occupation Era. :wink:[/quote]

Just like right now it’s called the Third Chinese Occupation Era.


#518

[quote=“hansioux”][quote=“Muzha Man”][quote=“headhonchoII”]Yep the Japanese didn’t just roll into Taiwan on a magic carpet, there was stiff resistance from local Taiwanese and many died.
The aboriginals also rebelled against the Japanese.[/quote]

Careful, now. Soon you will be calling it the Japanese Occupation Era. :wink:[/quote]

Just like right now it’s called the Third Chinese Occupation Era.[/quote]

??


#519

[quote=“Mucha Man”][quote=“hansioux”][quote=“Muzha Man”][quote=“headhonchoII”]Yep the Japanese didn’t just roll into Taiwan on a magic carpet, there was stiff resistance from local Taiwanese and many died.
The aboriginals also rebelled against the Japanese.[/quote]

Careful, now. Soon you will be calling it the Japanese Occupation Era. :wink:[/quote]

Just like right now it’s called the Third Chinese Occupation Era.[/quote]

??[/quote]

KMT didn’t just roll into Taiwan on a magic carpet, there was stiff resistance from local Taiwanese and many died. The aboriginals also rebelled against the KMT.


#520

You are still speaking in code. I have no idea what I supposed to decipher from that.