Chinese manufacturing is not just cheap.
Its fast, efficient and also advanced and the scale and infrastructure of supply chains cannot be easily replicated
A lot of the knowhow of manufacturing right now resides in China.
Its not like you can just easily move things to Mexico. Supply chains are way more complicated than the early 90s
The process is long and hard and will end up with us paying a lot more for stuff.
yes. it is worth remembering that evolution developed on the back of oppression. that is the point. people want shit cheap, even if it means crimes against humanity. that is the sad part. and that clearly isnt changing. people love China cause they will murder their people to get you your gadget faster and cheaper. I find it hard to praise that.
Probably for the best if the era of buying cheap stuff we donât need that doesnât last is over though
the consumer really needs to change, on scale, then the supply chain will follow. I hope but I dont hold my breathe.
I didnât say that
Not even cheap shit.
China is very good at manufacturing now. Its not about people working for cheap, its that they have a lot of the skills and best practices.
Well
Remember how much computers and TVs used to cost in the 90s.
The reason stuff is cheaper now is that China got really good at manufacturing and built supply chains on a mass scale that canât be replicated elsewhere.
Again, its not even about low end manufacturing. Even higher-end manufacturing, the skills and knowhow are in China.
I think this discussion is a bit of a red herring though. Manufacturers are not the Chinese government. They are usually good people who arenât motivated by politics and are equally annoyed by Beijing politics.
The CCP is equally trying to decouple from the West as fast as possible and its private companies that are in the crosshairs.
We donât need so many TVs. I remember upgrading computers in the 90s, not always buying new; of course, I had to learn for that, but it wonât kill people
Sure it can. Not overnight and not exactly, but thatâs fine. Prices are going up in China as well.
Except allbthe things they have to import, like jet engines and semi conductors and so on. Also, donât forget all the IP transfer their manufacturing is based on. Sure, there are a lot of skills and knowhow in China today, but people in other countries can learn these things as well
The money has to come in somehow
Except theyâre turning around on tech after how that worked out, looking good there Jack Ma. And currently, much as the west currently stull relies on China, China relies on the west for importing high end manufactured goods and exporting their downstream products and copies and licensed goods. They canât rely on domestic consumption or allies like Russia to fill all the gaps
Decoupling is difficult on both sides, but geopolitically I think the west had more to gain. Economically I think they can afford to lose more. In terms of demographics, soft power makes it a no brainer. Technologically, ChatGPT had been yet another reminder that the Chinese private sector, which is a product of the party, hasnât been able to do much but copy and steal.
Its not as easy as it sounds. I work with some Taiwanese involved in manufacturing. The fact is that even huge advanced Taiwanese manufacturers have been in China for three decades. The top managment might be Taiwanese, but the actual knowhow lies with the Chinese managment. Unless you want to find a way to suck this information from their brain, its very hard to just up and move supply lines.
The process is happening, but it wont be easy.
In China you have:
A lot of Taiwanese want to relocate to Mexico, but the process is long and hard.
Soft-power doesnât mean much, sorry
China wants to decouple because it wants to reduce its risk of sanctions, like with Russia. This is everything they are doing with de-dollarization, like in Saudi and Brazil.
Yeah, but people should be prepared for a change in quality of life. Things will just be more expensive and slower than we have been used to for the last three decades.
The narrative of
Is just a falsehood.
I donât have any other point to make, but just that the situation is much more complicated than that and decoupling is a very difficult and long process and probably some things cant be completely decoupled from China.
People ARE trying. Right now the maxim is ABC (anywhere but China). Do you think Foxconn wants to move factories to India? Its a fucking pain. Everything is harder to do there. The country is corrupt and bureaucratic. Its hard to get quality workers and infrastructure is a mess. The reason they are moving there is that Apple wants them to.
I never said it would be easy
Fine, thatâs what I think
For demographics and immigration, sure it does. People are killing themselves to get to the west. Thatâs good for demographics. Chinaâs demographic advantage is waning and they will need significant changes to overcome that.
Sure, I understand this. Not relevant to my point about demographics though
Ok, as i said:
A lot of advanced Chinese factors are not that manpower dependent. But you are right, China has lost its demographic advantage, but thats not the only consideration.
Manufacturing isnât going back to America, for the most part. It will move to Mexico or Vietnam.
Its easy to say this stuff. Its like when someone telling me that they dont care if Brexit means the loss of a couple of percentage points of GDP for a decade.
A few % of GDP is the difference to people having food on the table and lining up for soup kitchens.
I dont think we are in any disagreement, just that this is going to be a long hard process. I think a lot of decoupling will actually be Chinese manufacturers moving their operations to Mexico or wherever
My ex wife worked for Xerox early 90âs.
They had a top secret copier in the works, top secret so Japanese could not copy.
2 year project that never finished WHY.
Canon released a superior copier with all the bells and whistles plus, not only that it looked more modern up to date than Xerox project.
Company admitted at a loss the Japanese didnât need to copy any longer.
Chinese products have improved whoâs to say they canât do the same?
For a lot of things, China is already ahead.
Look at EV, outside of Tesla, the main global leaders are from China
Here is some pushback from Taiwan, about recent developments (cough cough) in Guangdong.
Guy
Probably my best thread title
Yeah some Chinese innovation is based on IP theft, but itâs not 2010 anymore.
As expected, it was a Ma-era (2008-2016) issue. 
Taiwan and China used to have a cross-strait plant patent work group, which the two countries founded together in 2010, Chen said.
In 2016, China abruptly ceased all communications, and did not respond to calls for cooperation, despite the councilâs attempts to establish contact via non-governmental channels, he said.
Guy
Ok, yeah. Obviously a lot of what goes into the car was not developed in China, but seems the crucial battery technology that they are using had specifically been developed (if not invented) in China
Also a good example of how China isnât really a developing country
China has its own development bank for other Asian countries. Its ridiculous they should get the benefits of being a developing country
I didnât say cheap shit either. I said they want shit cheap. meaning they want everything way cheaper than it would be elsewhere. i dont deny their speed. My problem is with how they do things (oppression, freedom, tyranny and that whole jazz). if that is what is included with the definition of efficient now a days, i guess i dont want it THAT efficient 
having a well laid out factory is never really the issue with made in China. it is everything .behind it that is the issue.