I’ve also switched to eating only brown and multi-grain rice (五榖米, etc) at home and outside whenever it is available. I truly believe in the benefits of whole foods vs refined foods. Same goes for sugar and bread. I will always choose the whole food version, ie brown sugar and whole-grain bread. I read that brown rice and brown read are a good source for protein which is vital especially if you don’t eat animals.
However, I think most people in Taiwan will prefer white rice over brown rice because they find it tastes better. As for me, I prefer the more “healthy” taste of brown and multi-grain rice by now. It’s probably a matter of getting-used to.
Even whole wheat bread is relatively low in protein compared to meat. Every little bit helps of course but the calorie-to-protein ratio makes whole wheat bread a poor source of protein unless your diet restrictions demand it.
I guess that’ss correct and I can see that you’d prefer protein from meat if you want to build up lots of muscles. But for a healthy lifestyle I trust that animal protein should still be avoided and replaced with plant based protein, not necessarily in wheat, but in brown rice and many vegetables. Of course I wasn’t trying to imply that you can cover your protein needs just by eating brown rice and brown bread.
Meat based protein sources aren’t just for those looking to build up lots of muscles – they’re useful for everyone. The vast majority of people that I see in my gym greatly underestimate their need for protein from high quality sources. I’ve had people tell me they gets lots of protein – like 4-6 times per week. That’s just not going to maintain any amount of lean body mass regardless of any other factors.
People often forget that we lose muscle as we age and that non-animal sources of protein have relatively little protein per gram compared to red meat, etc. So people’s protein needs go up as they age but they often insist on eating low protein/high carb foods. Then they wonder why they get fat or can’t lose weight.
People are free to eat what they want but the case against meat is mostly based on propaganda.
There is certainly some “propaganda” involved. But there is always good and bad propaganda (see World War II). And anyway who would benefit from such propaganda more? The vegetable industry? PETA? You would probably admit that the case for meat is even more based on propaganda (meat industry means BIG money if you consider that annually over 10 billion animals are slaughtered and consumed as food in the US alone. Compared to that what money is to be made in veganism or animal welfare?).
I believe it’s a myth that animal protein is called “higher quality” than plant based protein. If quality means better for your health, then it should in fact be called “lower quality” due to the many health issues associated with animal protein and which are not triggered by plant based protein. The only reason it’s called “higher quality” by some is because it can be absorbed and used faster by the body, but it doesn’t say anything about whether it’s good or bad for you. It’s also a myth to say that you can only get enough protein for staying fit and healthy by eating meat (and lots of it, it seems). That’s definitely meat-industry propaganda. Otherwise, why are so many fitness protein drinks plant (soy) based if it is supposedly inferior to animal protein?
[quote=“GC Rider”][quote]
People are free to eat what they want but the case against meat is mostly based on propaganda.
[/quote]
There is certainly some “propaganda” involved. But there is always good and bad propaganda (see World War II). And anyway who would benefit from such propaganda more? The vegetable industry? PETA? You would probably admit that the case for meat is even more based on propaganda (meat industry means BIG money if you consider that annually over 10 billion animals are slaughtered and consumed as food in the US alone. Compared to that what money is to be made in veganism or animal welfare?).
I believe it’s a myth that animal protein is called “higher quality” than plant based protein. If quality means better for your health, then it should in fact be called “lower quality” due to the many health issues associated with animal protein and which are not triggered by plant based protein. The only reason it’s called “higher quality” by some is because it can be absorbed and used faster by the body, but it doesn’t say anything about whether it’s good or bad for you. It’s also a myth to say that you can only get enough protein for staying fit and healthy by eating meat (and lots of it, it seems). That’s definitely meat-industry propaganda. Otherwise, why are so many fitness protein drinks plant (soy) based if it is supposedly inferior to animal protein?[/quote]
CG Rider, I think you may well be right about plant proteins being no less nourishing than animal ones.
I believe the unique nutritional benefits provided by meat are said to include high levels of creatine, as well as easily-absorbed heme iron.
I used to supersize my McMeals when I was a kid with a giant Coke around 600ml(?), never again. I found this article, not sure about its reliability. I think this is based on a 360ml can.
[quote]In the first 10 minutes:10 teaspoons of sugar hit your system. (100% of your recommended daily intake.) You don’t immediately vomit from the overwhelming sweetness because phosphoric acid cuts the flavor, allowing you to keep it down. 20 minutes: Your blood sugar spikes, causing an insulin burst. Your liver responds to this by turning any sugar it can get its hands on into fat. (And there’s plenty of that at this particular moment.) 40 minutes: Caffeine absorption is complete. Your pupils dilate; your blood pressure rises; as a response, your liver dumps more sugar into your bloodstream. The adenosine receptors in your brain are now blocked, preventing drowsiness. 45 minutes: Your body ups your dopamine production, stimulating the pleasure centers of your brain. This is physically the same way heroin works, by the way. > 60 minutes: The phosphoric acid binds calcium, magnesium, and zinc in your lower intestine, providing a further boost in metabolism. This is compounded by high doses of sugar and artificial sweeteners also increasing the urinary excretion of calcium. > 60 minutes: The caffeine’s diuretic properties come into play. (It makes you have to pee.) It is now assured that you’ll evacuate the bonded calcium, magnesium, and zinc that was headed to your bones as well as sodium, electrolytes, and water. > 60 minutes: As the rave inside you dies down, you’ll start to have a sugar crash. You may become irritable and/or sluggish. You’ve also now, literally, pissed away all the water that was in the Coke. But not before infusing it with valuable nutrients your body could have used for things like hydrating your system, or building strong bones and teeth.[/quote]
But I’m not trying to argue for vegans to start eating meat. I was simply aiming my thoughts at people trying to get into shape who think they should be cutting meat out of their diet – a very bad idea IMO.
My comment about high quality protein sources was about potency. Whole wheat bread, etc. is NOT a potent source of protein, therefore consuming it for the protein is a very bad idea. The amount of carbs vs. protein in bread makes renders it useless as a protein source.
My experience training vegans and vegetarians shows me that almost of all of them do nothing but constantly carbo load. That just makes sense, doesn’t it? Octo-lavo vegetarians usually consume enough high quality (read: potent) protein but other vegetarians rarely do unless they are paying very strict attention to it, a rare case in women vegetarians IME.
Most vegans and vegetarians would do well to use a protein supplement if they aren’t consuming milk and eggs. They usually need a more potent source of protein in the diet.
Too much of ANYTHING is bad.
That’s why its called TOO MUCH.
Countries with the longest life span are also countries with a lot of meat in the diet.
Enough reason for me to go to the steak house once per week.
Even you eat only vegetables, you need to exercise as much as someone with beef in the diet.
[quote=“engerim”]Too much of ANYTHING is bad.
That’s why its called TOO MUCH.
Countries with the longest life span are also countries with a lot of meat in the diet.
Enough reason for me to go to the steak house once per week.
Even you eat only vegetables, you need to exercise as much as someone with beef in the diet.[/quote]
Meat as in red meat? I recall fish eating nations (Norway, Denmark, Japan) are the ones with longest life spans.
[quote=“JohnH”][quote=“engerim”]Too much of ANYTHING is bad.
That’s why its called TOO MUCH.
Countries with the longest life span are also countries with a lot of meat in the diet.
Enough reason for me to go to the steak house once per week.
Even you eat only vegetables, you need to exercise as much as someone with beef in the diet.[/quote]
Meat as in red meat? I recall fish eating nations (Norway, Denmark, Japan) are the ones with longest life spans.[/quote]
Yeah fish is nice too
[quote=“Formosa Fitness”]
My experience training vegans and vegetarians shows me that almost of all of them do nothing but constantly carbo load. That just makes sense, doesn’t it? Octo-lavo vegetarians usually consume enough high quality (read: potent) protein but other vegetarians rarely do unless they are paying very strict attention to it, a rare case in women vegetarians IME.
Most vegans and vegetarians would do well to use a protein supplement if they aren’t consuming milk and eggs. They usually need a more potent source of protein in the diet.[/quote]
I think the question is how do you determine how much protein intake you really need and how much of that must come from animal sources. Im just wondering why are you assuming that a vegan diet must per se be deficient in protein? Of course, if you compare vegans to meat eaters, it is quite likely that meat eaters have a higher intake of protein, especially if they eat meat every day. But again that does not necessarily mean that it is the healthier diet. I believe it’s possible to eat too much protein as well as too little. Both are not good for you. I think it is fair to say that there’s a danger of eating too much protein if you’re a meat eater and too little protein if you’re a vegan. However, it is not hard for a vegan to get enough plant protein (in order to be healthy) if you do eat your vegetables instead of relying only on carbs.
But again the question that interests me most is how do you determine what your minimum protein intake should be and how much of that must be animal protein? What are the symptoms of (animal) protein deficiency and do all or most vegans show these symptoms?
Urodacus, are you saying that followers of the Atkins diet face a ‘huge risk’ of ketoacidosis? On researching ketoacidosis it appears it is the result of ‘extreme’ ketosis. Now, bearing in mind the state of ketosis is essentially what the Atkins Diet is all about, how does one then define 'extreme"?
However, according to Dr. Atkins (New Diet Revolution, page 57) he states ketosis and ketoacidosis are worlds apart.
“In the minds of laypeople (and even some ill-informed doctors) ketosis is often confused with diabetic ketoacidosis. The latter is the consequence of insulin-deficient subjects having out of control blood sugar levels, a condition that can occur as well in alcoholics and people in a state of extreme starvation. Ketosis and Ketoacidosis may sound vaguely alike, but the two conditions are virtually polar apart.”
Question 1: Is it the case you’d ONLY go into ketoacidosis (from ketosis) IF your body was insulin deficient?
Question 2: Can the Atkins Diet attributed with causing this insulin deficiency?
Additional Edit: Discussion on Wikipedia about their ketoacidosis entry: “The entry discusses the link between diabetes or alcohol and Ketoacidosis, but only softly refers to starvation. Is it possible or probable to experience Ketoacidosis where insulin function is normal, but glucose or carbohydrate ingestion is extremely low? If not, why not? How does the manifestation of extreme Ketosis differ from Ketoacidosis if this circumstance doesn’t lead to Ketoacidosis?” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ketoacidosis
[quote=“GC Rider”][quote=“Formosa Fitness”]
My experience training vegans and vegetarians shows me that almost of all of them do nothing but constantly carbo load. That just makes sense, doesn’t it? Octo-lavo vegetarians usually consume enough high quality (read: potent) protein but other vegetarians rarely do unless they are paying very strict attention to it, a rare case in women vegetarians IME.
Most vegans and vegetarians would do well to use a protein supplement if they aren’t consuming milk and eggs. They usually need a more potent source of protein in the diet.[/quote]
I think the question is how do you determine how much protein intake you really need and how much of that must come from animal sources. Im just wondering why are you assuming that a vegan diet must per se be deficient in protein? Of course, if you compare vegans to meat eaters, it is quite likely that meat eaters have a higher intake of protein, especially if they eat meat every day. But again that does not necessarily mean that it is the healthier diet. I believe it’s possible to eat too much protein as well as too little. Both are not good for you. I think it is fair to say that there’s a danger of eating too much protein if you’re a meat eater and too little protein if you’re a vegan. However, it is not hard for a vegan to get enough plant protein (in order to be healthy) if you do eat your vegetables instead of relying only on carbs.
But again the question that interests me most is how do you determine what your minimum protein intake should be and how much of that must be animal protein? What are the symptoms of (animal) protein deficiency and do all or most vegans show these symptoms?[/quote]
It’s been awhile since I’ve taken a look at the actual numbers so these might be off a little (just what I remember). But if someone targeted a caloric intake of 60% carbs, 25% protein and 15% fat then a vegan would have to select their food carefully to get a high enough protein content. It’s certainly possible but they would have load up on more concentrated sources like beans, nuts and tofu (just off the top of my head). A non-meat eater that eats eggs and dairy would have an easier time getting to the 25% protein intake. And keep in mind that the 25% number is just a best guess from memory but there is a lot of info out there (usually conflicting) on what portion of your diet should be C, P and F. And it’s also been said that athletes in intense training not only need more calories but a percentage of them from protein.
There is additional info out there that all of the essential amino acids are required for good health and this is likely where the whole meat protein is necessary for good health arguments come from. Meat (and a few vegetarian options like quinoa) are sources of the complete amino acids. Vegans typically will have to eat several different protein sources (for example rice and beans with nuts as snacks). But there have also been questions raised about just how essential the essential amino acids are. I think the importance of the amino acids are overblown if you’re getting a varied intake of protein in a vegan/vegetarian diet.
FWIW - The standard western diet is terrible. Way too much fat, salt and simple sugar in addition to huge portion sizes. I hate comments like ‘you don’t have any meat with your lunch’ or ‘this steak (6oz) is pretty small’ among others.
ironically, after changing my diet, I have to say fat comes in at No. 3 behind sugar and salt, but really depends on the quantity right? gram for gram, I have no clue to the original question. but the kicker is, they put corn fructose sugar, etc. in too much stuff, and salt is in almost everything that’s processed. So now I try to cook at home more, and check ingredients more carefully when grocery shopping.
I’d rather eat brown rice or even better quinoa (which was really good and cheap when I was in S.America), but here, this stuff is a total rip-off, blows my food budget. So for now, I stick with Thai white rice and just watch the portions.
Someone also mentioned whole-wheat bread. watch out, unless they are made in a local bakery, you will more likely be buying a refined wheat bread that’s not really whole-wheat. Check the ingredients - real whole wheat bread ingredient is different. So for now, I’m sticking to my rye bread. Rye bread has more fiber and prompts less sugar spikes compared to white flour bread.
*I just checked wiki. it says that whole wheat flour doesn’t rise as much and costs more than refined white flour, so many “whole wheat bread” has refined flour.
Urodacus, are you saying that followers of the Atkins diet face a ‘huge risk’ of ketoacidosis? On researching ketoacidosis it appears it is the result of ‘extreme’ ketosis. Now, bearing in mind the state of ketosis is essentially what the Atkins Diet is all about, how does one then define 'extreme"?
However, according to Dr. Atkins (New Diet Revolution, page 57) he states ketosis and ketoacidosis are worlds apart.
Thanks![/quote]
I said that the risk of hypoglycaemic crash and perhaps coma is high once one goes into ketoacidosis, not that there is a high risk of ketoacidosis.
ketosis is obviously how the Atkins diet works. Burning fats to provide energy, and using fats to create glucose which is essential for neurons to function, ie, your brain, generates acetone as one byproduct that is vented into the lungs from the bloodstream (as well as being further metabolised elsewhere like the liver), and hence the ketone breath. Extreme ketosis (or even mild ketosis combined with low water intake or vigourous exercise) can be acidotic. In extreme ketosis, the blood becomes more acidic for several reasons, one of which is increased CO2 levels and another is altered bicarbonate processing in the kidneys. But the ketosis or the ketoacidosis are not the risk factors for hypoglycaemic crash, but merely indicators that the level of glucose is really low. Go low enough and you crash out into ‘diabetic’ coma. There are also effects on insulin, but they are not related to the ketosis or the acidosis.
and ketosis and ketoacidosis are not particularly ‘worlds apart’: one is the extension of the other, combined with the inevitable metabolic effects of extensive reliance on fat and protein metabolism.
