Maybe the universe is going to help this girl because the bond is strong btw her and her loved one…So, hense the intrest taken by Wolf. God has to get the message across some how. So lets help out.
[quote]I don’t want to start some kind of people vs. animal value debate here, but taking on a pet is taking on responsibility for another life. Period.
[/quote]
Well said.
I blame the bloody pet stores here selling little cutie things that grow into big troublesome pets.
I say ban all pet stores until all the strays ahve been adopted. If you want a pedigree animal you and the animal have to be licenced, and you can only get it from a licenced breeder.
Brian
Maybe the universe is going to help this girl because the bond is strong btw her and her loved one…So, hense the intrest taken by Wolf. God has to get the message across some how. So lets help out.[/quote]
Doesn’t seem to strong to me if she dumped him off on her dad. :loco:
tigerman
So if I dump my unwanted pet on your front doorstep and then you decide not to care for him, you are not to be ‘absolved’ from any ‘blame and guilt’ concerning the future of the dog. Therefore, if this were the good ol’ U.S. of A, then the court would find you guilty of animal abuse for refusing to care for the pet you neither asked for or sought out. Does that about sum it up? 
I keep reading “dumped the dog off on her father’s doorstep” here, but didn’t she leave the dog in the family home, where both she AND the dog had been living for six years? My local office colleagues seem to think so. . . (but they’ve been wrong before)
Either way, the father is the one that dumped the dog, so he alone is the bad guy - the girl’s motives for buying the dog, along with her grandmother’s blood group, are irrelevant - two irresponsible acts don’t make a responsible one 
By what logic did you arrive at that conclusion?
No, it doesn’t.
The facts in your analogy are not the same or even similar to the facts of the instant case.
In the instant case, I think we can assume that the father did not object to caring for the dog when the girl left to work in China (otherwise, we can assume that the girl would have made other arrangements for the care of her dog). If the father complained about the responsibility, he apparently did not object in definite terms. If he accepted the responsibility, however reluctantly, then he is guilty of inexcusable cruelty to the animal that he subsequently dumped in the mountains.
This seems pretty simple to me.
The girl left HER dog at her FATHER’s home (no longer her home once she moves out, even if she does leave shit behind in storage like most people do) = I leave MY dog at YOUR home
Dad doesn’t want the dog = You don’t want the dog
Dad takes the dog for a walk and leaves it behind = You refuse to take the dog to the vet, feed it or water it
Everyone says Dad is wrong for abusing the dog = Everyone says you are wrong for not caring (abusing) the dog
See simple.
Why do you assume dad had any responsibly for a pet abandoned in his home? Perhaps dad never wanted the dog in his household anyway. Then the girl moved to China knowing it would be a death sentence for the dog but trying to absolve herself of any blame since she didn’t ‘actively’ do anything to the dog.
Sorry…the girl is the only one to blame.
Wrong. The two acts above are not equal. The dog already lived in the father’s home. The father had presumably some notion or prior warning that the girl would be leaving home. Neither of these relevant facts apply to me, and thus the two acts are not equal. 
Wrong. Dad had an oportunity to refuse to care for the dog. I didn’t even know the dog existed until the girl dropped him off at my door. Thus, the facts are not the same.
Wrong again. Dad accepted the responsibility, regardless of his reluctance to do the same. I never accepted the responsibility. Thus, there was at least a reasonable expectation and reliance that the father would care for the dog. No such expectation or reliance exists with respect to me.
[quote=“Vannyel”]Everyone says Dad is wrong for abusing the dog = Everyone says you are wrong for not caring (abusing) the dog
See simple.[/quote]
No. That’s stupid. By your logic, everyone who refuses to adopt an animal at a shelter or on the street is guilty of abuse. That is absurd.
I already explained this… The girl lived with her parents or at least had some contact with her parents. The girl had the dog for at least 6 years and we can assume the father knew of the dog and also that he knew that his daughter was leaving for China. Thus, the father had some time to state in unambiguous terms that he would not care for the dog… in which case we can assume that the girl would have made other arrangements for her dog. Since she did not, we can assume that the father, even if reluctant, finally accepted the responsibility of caring for the dog.
I’ve already considered this possibility…
[quote=“Vannyel”]Then the girl moved to China knowing it would be a death sentence for the dog but trying to absolve herself of any blame since she didn’t ‘actively’ do anything to the dog.
Sorry…the girl is the only one to blame.[/quote]
Are you joking? If the father, even if reluctant, agreed to care for the dog, then the girl had a reasonable expectation that her father would not dump the dog in such a cruel fashion.
This isn’t all that difficult to understand.
By your illogic, if I drop an unwanted infant at your door you are absolved from any responsibility to make certain that the infant is cared for properly. Again, that conclusion is absurd.
[quote=“Vannyel”]
So if I dump my unwanted pet on your front doorstep and then you decide not to care for him, you are not to be ‘absolved’ from any ‘blame and guilt’ concerning the future of the dog. Therefore, if this were the good ol’ U.S. of A, then the court would find you guilty of animal abuse for refusing to care for the pet you neither asked for or sought out. Does that about sum it up? 
[/quote]
Apples and oranges, Vannyel.
Wolf’s original post states that the father abandoned the dog because he did not want to care for it “anymore.” This statement, if true, shows that the father had agreed to care for the dog, but grew tired of the job. Whether the father agreed “happily” or “begrudgingly” is irrelevant. Once daddy accepted the dog from his daughter, the dog was his responsibility.
Under California law*, your statement that “if this were the good ol’ U.S. of A, then the court would find you guilty of animal abuse for refusing to care for the pet you neither asked for or sought out” would not apply in the father’s case if he did, in fact, accept possession and provide the dog with care. California law provides that “every person who willingly abandons an animal is guilty of a misdemeanor.” Ownership is not an issue. In California, once the father accepted possession of the dog, he would be responsible for its care even if the daughter had agreed to take the dog back in one month’s time and failed to do so.
The father
Tigerman, aren’t you assuming quite a bit that hasn’t been established, aren’t you?
“The father had presumably some notion or prior warning that the girl would be leaving home.” AND would be leaving the dog behind.
“Dad had an oportunity to refuse to care for the dog.”
How do we know he didn’t refuse and wasn’t ignored?
“Dad accepted the responsibility, regardless of his reluctance to do the same.”
How do we know? Maybe he said, “if you leave that damn dog here I am going to take it off into the mountains and dump it.”
“Since she did not, we can assume that the father, even if reluctant, finally accepted the responsibility of caring for the dog.”
No we can’t. We could equally assume she was a lazy child and didn’t try to find anyone else.
Babies are not dogs but I wouldn’t advise abandoning one on my doorstep and coming back expecting to find it later.
smerf
Yes…IF TRUE…and if he did, and he grew tired of the chore, he had every right to expect her to return and take HER dog. If she failed to do so in a timely manner, then she essentially ‘abandoned’ the dog and he was free to do with it as he pleased…if he lived in NC, WV, VA, TN, AR, OK, and any one of twenty other states…he would have walked out back - shot it in the head and buried it in the rose garden. End of story. But then again in CA or WA, he might have to worry about the SPCA.
[quote]Your scenario certainly presents a moral question, IMO. Given TM
I can only assume that Vannyel is writing such nonsense solely for the purpose of provoking Tigerman and other such reasonably-minded people. It’s probably better not to rise to such bait.
I find it almost as incredible and regrettable that anyone would condone the father’s behaviour as that anyone would do what he did in the first place. Shame on such apologists as much as on that heartless old bastard.
But he doesn’t and he didn’t, did he? He abandoned it in the mountains to die slowly of disease or starvation. Which makes him a heartless bastard. And THAT’S end of story.
Almost.
He also broke Taiwan’s law – I believe it’s illegal to abandon animals here – and knowing the high regard in which you hold the laws of this great land, and how your constant mantra is that we should strictly adhere to them to the letter without complaint or else leave, I’m sure you’d be happy to see this fucker suffer the full weight of the judicial process.
[quote=“Omniloquacious”]I can only assume that Vannyel is writing such nonsense solely for the purpose of provoking Tigerman and other such reasonably-minded people. It’s probably better not to rise to such bait.
I find it almost as incredible and regrettable that anyone would condone the father’s behaviour as that anyone would do what he did in the first place. Shame on such apologists as much as on that heartless old bastard.[/quote]
Quite frankly, when I tried to pull that stunt on my parents thirty-some years ago, I was told in no uncertain terms that the dog would not be there when I got back (from the army). It was my dog and I was expected to take care of it or find it a home. Period. Shifting the responsiblity to my parents was not an option. You want a dog then take care of it. What’s so hard to understand about that, for christ sake?
But he doesn’t and he didn’t, did he? He abandoned it in the mountains to die slowly of disease or starvation. Which makes him a heartless bastard. And THAT’S end of story.
Almost.
He also broke Taiwan’s law – I believe it’s illegal to abandon animals here – and knowing the high regard in which you hold the laws of this great land, and how your constant mantra is that we should strictly adhere to them to the letter without complaint or else leave, I’m sure you’d be happy to see this fucker suffer the full weight of the judicial process.[/quote]
Sure I would…just like I’d like to know the FULL story as well. So has he been turned in? Has the body of the dog been found? Has the girl returned from China? Please more details…
Good for them. Taught you about responsibility. However, from what we know, it appears the father abandoned the dog because he didn’t want to take care of it ANYMORE. This suggests that he was initially agreeable to looking after it, right? A totally different situation to the one you describe re: your folks.
In any case, your “he has every right to kill it if he wants to – he doesn’t want it” argument is pretty callous. It’s his daughter’s pet, for fuck’s sake.
I sincerely hope he becomes one of those sad fucks who has to end his days in an old folks home because his daughter refuses to have anything to do with him. See? I can be just as callous as you.
I knew you could if you just tried. :bravo:
Now that we’ve worked ourselves up on just one-half of the story (assuming it’s true), what are we going to do? I am afraid we’ve worn out all our speculations and need more facts. 
I am mainly familiar with CA law concerning animal cruelty. However, I would be surprised to find a State that has not criminalized the type of behavior you suggest above. Daddy may have every right to expect her to come back and take the dog, but if she doesn’t, he is still responsible for the dog. Dumping or shooting are not ok (except, perhaps, in the world of Vannyel). :loco:
I don’t know what you’re going to do, but if someone gives me a bit more info about when and exactly where the dog was abandoned, I might go up there with some dogfood and see if I can find it.
“Heeere Brother!”
smerf…
The world of Vannyel happens to include the Bible-belt and a majority of the United States. It is more commonly referred to as as the real world. California, on the other hand, is normally referred to as la-la land, for obvious reasons. 
I am trying to get more details for you, but my understanding from the outset was that the dog had been living in the family home its entire life. So although it “belonged” to Mei, it was in and amongst the family as well.
My understanding is that the father either tacitly or outwardly accepted the fact that Mei was being posted overseas and accepted the care of the dog. It is further my understanding that he, for whatever reason, decided that he didn’t want to take care of the dog anymore. It is also my understanding that he didn’t call Mei to ask if she could find someone else to take it (thus the fact that her sister went to the mountains on hearing of the news to search, in vain, for Brother).
I will post the results of what I find when I do, but I think, for me, this rests on one particular thing – love and caring.
A father should have enough care and love for his daughter to know better than to unilaterally get rid of her dog in this manner. What burns me is that he apparently didn’t even think it necesary to contact his daughter over this. Even if the dog were less than a sentient animal, would it be right to take something that you allowed yourself to be entrusted with and throw it away?
Vannyel: Where is are all my books, Dad?
Mr. Vannyel: I threw them away. You were in Taiwan anyway and we needed more space to study the Bible.
The man abandoned a dog and unless that dog is found by someone else to care for it, it will almost certainly die.
It may happen relatively quickly if it is hit by a car. Or, it may take months before it dies of starvation, disease, attacks, whatever.
Vannyel, it amazes me that anyone could argue that the behaviour of the father is in any way acceptable. Regardless of the arrangement he had with his daughter (though, as many have pointed out we can infer that some kind of agreement had been reached between the daughter and the father) he chose to abandon an animal to an almost certain death.
His behaviour is reprehensible, and while I love a good parry of ideas, I’m afraid your arguments on his behalf are very nearly as well.
For the cat question: Personally, I’d be as upset/outraged if it were a cat, or any other animal for that matter.
and you rooftop, are assuming the man considers a dog in the same light you (and quite a few people) do…
To the majority of the people in the world dogs are either a source of food or …well just dogs…not pets, not loved ones, not family members…just four legged animals period. Right or wrong, once again we are judging this guy by our morals/standards… I will ask you also to consider these facts, most Americans take their pets to the vet more than they go to the doctor, over 70% of Americans consider a pet to be a member of the family, and finally, over 53% of Americans cook meals for their pet. Now do you really think these same statistics apply to Taiwan?
Personally, I think the more affluent a society becomes the more they worry about ‘stuff’ like animal rights, the environment, political correctness, etc. I don’t think the citizens of any country in the world give a damn about any of these things until they reach a certain level of income (and education). So we can rant and rave all we want but aside from a little lip service, Taiwan is going to stay twenty years behind the West until people make an average of more than US$20,000 a year (and adjust their mindset accordingly) and don’t have to worry (realistically or not) where their next meal is coming from or if their children can go to college, etc.
[quote]Vannyel: Where is are all my books, Dad?
Mr. Vannyel: I threw them away. You were in Taiwan anyway and we needed more space to study the Bible.[/quote]
Well all I can say is thank god dad was functionally illiterate so I didn’t have to worry about that. Mom, on the other hand, reads that damn thing every night so that is a possibility.