Father status for unmarried couple having 1st baby in Taiwan

[Askr]

[color=#FF0000]Hello, I am moving this to the Legal forum where you are most likely to get some good responses. Welcome and good luck! Igor Parenting Moderator.[/color]
Hi all

First post here.
Im having my first child with my lovely Taiwanese girlfriend in June. We met in Australia but for various reasons we are going to have the child in Taiwan.
We are not married and im just wondering if this is going to cause any major headaches for us.
Im Australian and my girlfriend is Taiwanese Aboriginal.

I read in another thread that they wouldn’t allow one guy here to be put on the birth certificate because they weren’t married.

[Marriage in Taiwan

@Visitor

1. I lived with my wife, pre-marriage, from 1993. I stayed in Taiwan as a visitor since then.
   Before marriage, we had two boys. My name was not allowed to be put on the birth certificate. My boys were therfore, in the eyes of the ROC gov, 100% taiwanese.

It didn’t pose a problem when he registered the children with the UK govt however.

As far as i know children in Taiwan take the last name of the father. I’m guessing that won’t happen due to our marriage status.

Well anyway if anyone has any info or experience with this i would love to hear about it. Til then i will keep searching on forumosa

many thanks,
askr

[divea]

Congratulations!! I don’t know anything about your query, but welcome to Parenting IRL and Forumosa, both strange worlds.

[bismarck]

@Askr

As far as I know children in Taiwan take the last name of the father. I’m guessing that won’t happen due to our marriage status.

Well, they only use Chinese names in their records (HHR etc), so unless you have an actual Chinese name that doesn’t really matter anyway. And if your Chinese name is just something made up (not your father’s name), would you really want your child to have that, or his/her mother’s name?
My son (like myself) has his mother’s family name in Chinese, but in his passport where they usually write the garbled romanisation of the Chinese name he has his proper English name (with my family name) as registered in my home country (we needed a birth certificate from my country of origin for that).

[Askr]

Thanks divea - is good to be here (and in Taiwan for the 1st time on thursday). No doubt i will be around these forums a fair bit from now on. I know how to use the search engine so im sure i’ll fit in quite nicely.

Some good info there bismarck. I don’t have any chinese names so i guess going with mum’s name is the best option.
I looked into registering the child in Australia after the birth and it seems quite straight forward. Had been wondering what i was going to do for a chinese last name so taking my girlfriend’s last name looks like a good idea.

Hmm, any tips on meeting her dad for the first time…? eeeek!

[bismarck]

[quote=“Askr”]Some good info there bismarck. I don’t have any chinese names so i guess going with mum’s name is the best option.
I looked into registering the child in Australia after the birth and it seems quite straight forward. Had been wondering what I was going to do for a chinese last name so taking my girlfriend’s last name looks like a good idea.[/quote]
No worries. Just made sense to me. My Chinese family name was 史 before we got married, but I thought it ridiculous as it isn’t really my name in any way, means or form as I’m not Chinese. So I took my wife’s name 甘 and kept the other two characters that I already had (which I’ve been told is fine as a Chinese name, and is in fact the name of some literary or historical character (I think Dragonbones told me that). Just made sense to me to use that for all official documents and registrations in Chinese as it’s a name that has “value” in a family sense, and I still have my normal English name and family name for all things English and back in my home country. Only difference is, where a Chinese name is required I, and my son, now have a name that actually means something and belongs to our family.
Another mate of mine kept his Chinese name that he chose for himself (林馬克) and now his two daughters and his wife all share another name (黃) which makes no sense to me.
But one thing that does happen is when people only see my and my wife’s name on paper without seeing me in person she often gets asked, “But how did you know that your husband isn’t actually blood family?” :roflmao:
Easy out when she responds, “Um…because he’s white and a foreigner…”

@Askr

Hmm, any tips on meeting her dad for the first time…? eeeek!

Everyone knows about my FiL’s stroke episode after he met me, so perhaps I’m not the right one to ask. Besides, I got along well with the mother, and in our case that’s what really mattered anyway.
Personally, I just suggest you be yourself and treat them with the same respect you would treat any prospective bride of yours’ parents with.

[viba]

Congrats and welcome!

I can’t help but think why you are not considering marriage. Asides from making the process of all the legalities a lot smoother (dual citizenship, etc), it will be a stronger foundation for your new family to build on. Sorry if it’s off topic or if I come across as old fashioned, but I’ve seen too many families broken apart by unmarried parents.

All the best

[sandman]

I can’t really make a lot of sense from the responses to your post, but if your girlfriend is having the baby here, I don’t think you’ll have any rights at all if you’re not married. Maybe the Taiwanese authorities now recognize the birth father of a child born out of wedlock, but it must be a pretty recent thing if they do, I think.
Do they allow the father’s name to be put on the birth certificate if the child is born out of wedlock? I don’t know, but I don’t THINK they do. In which case, it will be rather difficult to register its birth in Oz if you’re not in the picture on the birth document, won’t it?
I think you need to get your girlfriend to talk to the authorities here about it rather than relying on the unsubstantiated word of a bunch of people who have little idea about what they’re talking about most of the time. This is your child’s future you’re talking about, not what’s the best kind of motorbike for Taiwan’s mountains or the latest promotion at Costco.

[bismarck]

[quote=“sandman”]I can’t really make a lot of sense from the responses to your post, but if your girlfriend is having the baby here, [color=#FF0000]I don’t think you’ll have any rights at all if you’re not married[/color]. Maybe the Taiwanese authorities now recognize the birth father of a child born out of wedlock, but [color=#FF0000]it must be a pretty recent thing if they do[/color], I think.
[color=#FF0000]Do they allow the father’s name to be put on the birth certificate if the child is born out of wedlock? I don’t know, but I don’t THINK they do.[/color] In which case, it will be rather difficult to register its birth in Oz if you’re not in the picture on the birth document, won’t it? [/quote]
I didn’t mention that issue because I wasn’t sure if the situation had changed. It was the reason why my wife and I decided to get married four years ago.

[spaint]

Get married, and get some rights:

Need help attaining legal parentship

I’m posting this on behalf of a friend of mine - to cut a long story short he got his taiwanese girlfriend pregnant back about 2 years ago, which was unplanned but she seemed to accept things but marriage was never mentioned… - anyway the day comes and he finds himself the proud father of twins - so he’s there at the hospital with her family and they go off to do all the legal stuff but omit to name him as the legal parent to his boys, and forget to tell him - something he finds out later when h…

[Northcoast_Surfer]

[quote=“spaint”]Get married, and get some rights:
[Need help attaining legal parentship married is the only way to protect your rights. If your girlfriend decides, for whatever reason, that she doesn’t want you in her or your child’s life, she has every right to deny you even basic visitation rights. No marriage, no parental rights as a father. You will be at her mercy and will have whatever rights she and her family deem you are entitled, and that can change as easily as the wind. I would prefer not reading an update thread about how your girlfriend has kept your child away from you and how you need legal assistance. I’ve seen it too many times. Please proceed carefully.

[Joschka]

I know an actual case similar to yours. A Taiwanese man, in an arranged marriage with two children, abandons his wife and shacks up with another Taiwanese woman. He has two children with the second woman and then abandons her as well.

Both of the children with the second woman have the father’s last name as their last name. All are still citizens of Taiwan.

[bismarck]

[quote=“Joschka”]I know an actual case similar to yours. A Taiwanese man, in an arranged marriage with two children, abandons his wife and shacks up with another Taiwanese woman. He has two children with the second woman and then abandons her as well.

Both of the children with the second woman have the father’s last name as their last name. All are still citizens of Taiwan.[/quote]
Correct me if I’m wrong, but all parties involved, including the man, seem to be Taiwanese citizens from your post. That often makes all the difference. In a similar situation, if the man were a foreigner, I’d bet my wages that he’d be up shit creek without a paddle. Also, not being ethnically Chinese with a “real Chinese name” the kids would in all probability not bear his name, and he may have a hard time registering them as his children back home as his parental rights aren’t shown on any birth certificates or other official documents.
This Forum is littered with stories of unmarried fathers with no access or other rights to their kids, even ones who were married. The common denominator being they were all foreigners. Very few foreign partners have any rights, let alone custody of children from such unions, and on this site I know of only two.

[Northcoast_Surfer]

[quote=“Joschka”]I know an actual case similar to yours. A Taiwanese man, in an arranged marriage with two children, abandons his wife and shacks up with another Taiwanese woman. He has two children with the second woman and then abandons her as well.

Both of the children with the second woman have the father’s last name as their last name. All are still citizens of Taiwan.[/quote]I’m sorry, I don’t get your post. You know an actual case similar to whose? The original poster Askr? Please provide clarification.

1. Askr is Australian, not Taiwanese.
2. This isn’t an arranged marriage. His Taiwanese girlfriend is pregnant, and so far hasn’t indicated he intends to marry her.
3. The possibility of Askr getting married is to his adult girlfriend by choice and not “in an arranged marriage with two children”.
4. Askr hasn’t indicated that he intends to abandon his pregnant girlfriend and shack up with anyone else. Coversely, he intends to move to Taiwan to be with his Taiwanese girlfriend and raise their child together.

[Askr]

hi all,

Thans for taking the time to respond to my first post.
viba ~ i am considering marriage Call me old fashioned but i want to do it for the right reasons (love and commitment) and not for the wrong reasons (family pressure, paper work, convenience, etc). That said it does appear that some things should be taken into consideration now that im in a foreign country (legal rights of the father, etc)

Before i left Australia I had the good sense to organise the paperwork needed for getting married in Taiwan (certificate of no impedance, police check, etc).
So i’m definitely looking into it seriously.

Sandman ~ no, im not relying on unsubstantiated word of mouth for advice (that woud be stupid). But it is a good starting point to getting some personal experiences on the subject. My girlfriend has been talking to the authorities and she confirms that my name wont be on the birth certificate if we are not married. We haven’t cleared up whether english names can be used on birth documents if we were married though. Still looking into it. Yes, more serious than getting the right kind of motorbike for Taiwan’s mountains! lol

[quote=“Northcoast Surfer”]

1. Askr is Australian, not Taiwanese.
2. This isn’t an arranged marriage. His Taiwanese girlfriend is pregnant, and so far hasn’t indicated he intends to marry her.
3. The possibility of Askr getting married is to his adult girlfriend by choice and not “in an arranged marriage with two children”.
4. Askr hasn’t indicated that he intends to abandon his pregnant girlfriend and shack up with anyone else. Coversely, he intends to move to Taiwan to be with his Taiwanese girlfriend and raise their child together.[/quote]

1.) I’m Australian
2.) Not an arranged marriage. Not asked her to marry me yet but I would love too ask her to be my wife (and make sure she knows it’s not just to make life easier)
3.) Not an arranged marriage! how do these rumours start i wonder
4.) No, not planning to abandon girlfriend. Just sorted out my affairs in Australia and I am now in Taiwan. Living with girlfriend and getting ready to have child (in june) and raise daughter together

@bismarck

[quote=“Askr”]As far as I know children in Taiwan take the last name of the father. I’m guessing that won’t happen due to our marriage status.[/quote]

Well, they only use Chinese names in their records (HHR etc), so unless you have an actual Chinese name that doesn’t really matter anyway. quote]

Hey bismarck. My girlfriend is still trying to find an answer to this one. Even if we are married it still looks difficult to get my english name on the birth records. If i did have a chinese name on the birth records wouldn’t it be hard to get that (the chinese name) recognised by Australian authorities when i tried to register the birth with them?

Yes, it’s quite a minefield of a topic. I’m taking it seriously as you can imagine. Certainly taking it even more seriously after reading some of the horror stories on these boards. The baby is due in June so there is still a little time to sort things out. As i mentioned earlier I organised some documents i need for marriage before i left Australia.

Thanks for the replies. They have given me food for thought. Would love to hear anything else that people might think of.

[reefdiver]

If you are married then there will be no problem getting your name on the birth certificate. Make up a Chinese name for yourself (your SO should be happy to suggest one !)- that will go on the Chinese birth certificate. If the hospital also issues an English birth certificate (at least some hospitals do) then you can use your English name on that.

Marriage will make you the legally recognised father of the child as far as Taiwan is concerned. In the event (and I hope that this never happens to you) that things go wrong, you can apply to the court for visitation rights to see the child but these are on paper only because the courts in Taiwan don’t enforce these rights- see some of the postings in the Legal forum. It’s basically up to the woman and her family how often, if at all, the foreign father gets to see his child again and the law will do nothing. Of course, marriage has real practical advantages such as visa/ residence.

By the way, if your SO is cool to live with you and not marry for the time being, then she’s a real gem.

Good luck !

[sandman]

If the hospital also issues an English birth certificate

Cardinal Tien Hospital issued an English-language birth certificate for us, no problem. It took an extra day, as far as I remember.

[Askr]

@sandman

[quote]If the hospital also issues an English birth certificate

Cardinal Tien Hospital issued an English-language birth certificate for us, no problem. It took an extra day, as far as I remember.[/quote]

Thanks for the tip.
Yes she is a real gem.
I also found this thread with some good advice on the questions im looking at (unmarried parents, giving child wife’s last name, child nationality issues). Worth reading if you’re looking for information:
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=69763

Know i have a little bit of an understanding my girlfriend and i can have an informed discussion about it. Lots of things to think about these days!

[bismarck]

@Askr

Hey bismarck. My girlfriend is still trying to find an answer to this one. Even if we are married it still looks difficult to get my english name on the birth records. If i did have a chinese name on the birth records wouldn’t it be hard to get that (the chinese name) recognised by Australian authorities when i tried to register the birth with them?

I think it depends on the hospital. My son was born at Sin Lau hospital in Tainan and they issued a birth certificate in Chinese and English, both with my English and Chinese names on them. I took the English copy to The South African Liaison Office in Taipei and applied for a South African birth certificate for my son which arrived a few weeks later in English with only his English Christian names and my surname. I then applied for a South African passport for him which had the same. His Taiwanese passport arrived with his Chinese name in characters and his proper English names (as per his South African birth certificate) in place of the garbled pinyin of his Chinese name. I needed his South African birth certificate to get his English name on his Taiwanese passport instead of the garbled romanisation of his Chinese name.

Have a look at different hospitals and ask them what their birth certificate policy is regarding names.

[cubewarrior]

Under current Taiwanese legislation the father of a child born out of wedlock cannot appear on the ‘official’ Taiwanese birth certificate (the one written in Mandarin that is used for household registration), it doesn’t matter if your a foreigner or not, the same rules apply. You can however obtain an English version of the birth certificate for use in obtaining dual nationality status with your home country, it should be pointed out though that you may well be asked by your own government to produce supporting evidence as to the child’s paternity, i.e. a DNA test report. There are some quirks in the law though (as with most things Taiwanese), but they get very very messy and are much too lengthy to discuss here…

I know, I’ve got 2 children with my Taiwanese partner, fortunately we are a happy and settled family unit!!

[zyzzx]

So does mean that if a foreign woman has a baby with a Taiwanese man, and they are not married, the baby will not be considered Taiwanese and won’t be eligible for citizenship?
Just curious if it goes the other way as well.