Hey,Keith …I notice you “sigh” a lot …
Wow, Keith, I can’t imagine a worse place to get a useful, accurate answer to your question than here. Surely asking on a forum dominated by actual Taiwanese people would be more appropriate?
[quote=“Poagao”]Wow, Keith, I can’t imagine a worse place to get a useful, accurate answer to your question than here. Surely asking on a forum dominated by actual Taiwanese people would be more appropriate?[/quote]Come on Poagao, you are Taiwanese. What’s your opinion? I for one would like to hear it…
And by the way, what qualifies one as being Taiwanese?
Yeah tell us, what qualifies as being Taiwanese … Satellite TV is Taiwanese … or is he?
I think most Taiwanese people are conscious that they are part of a basically Chinese cultural context/society (Yes, I know your girlfriend feels differently). As to what qualifies as “Taiwanese”, everyone has different definitions. I see myself as Taiwanese, not just because I hold ROC nationality but because I’ve spent my entire adult life here, for the most part as a citizen, but as an immigrant I am a special case and someone else may not feel that way; I can’t force them to “feel” other than they do. My friends also tend to feel I am Taiwanese, but it’s not a black-and-white thing. There are many different types of Taiwanese, just as there are many different types of Chinese, of which Taiwanese is one. Politically, of course, we are not PRC citizens and have no allegiance to the CCP. But people in Taiwan have learned throughout various administrations and rulers to be pessimistic of any and all moves by politicians and realistic of their efforts in bettering their lot, having seen all the games played with their livelihoods over the years by the mainland dynasties, the Japanese, the KMT and the DPP.
cool,Poagao, thats really a good reading in terms of English , logic, and my curiosity towards Taiwanese people 
One question : for this part “most Taiwanese people are conscious that they are”
Wont some people argue that , it was KMT government’s long time propaganda which made that?
Of course they will. And some people will argue that DPP propaganda has made more people try to distance themselves from Chinese culture. And some people will argue that we are all actually Dutch, or Austronesian or descended from black mountain midgets. But if you lived here, where people speak Chinese, following Chinese customs and culture with only a veneer of Japanese and Western influence, you could tell that this is a Chinese society and culture that we live in. If you read literature such as George Mackay’s “From Far Forumosa” you can see that it was the case even then.
[quote=“Poagao”]I think most Taiwanese people are conscious that they are part of a basically Chinese cultural context/society (Yes, I know your girlfriend feels differently). As to what qualifies as “Taiwanese”, everyone has different definitions. I see myself as Taiwanese, not just because I hold ROC nationality but because I’ve spent my entire adult life here, for the most part as a citizen, but as an immigrant I am a special case and someone else may not feel that way; I can’t force them to “feel” other than they do. My friends also tend to feel I am Taiwanese, but it’s not a black-and-white thing. There are many different types of Taiwanese, just as there are many different types of Chinese, of which Taiwanese is one. Politically, of course, we are not PRC citizens and have no allegiance to the CCP. But people in Taiwan have learned throughout various administrations and rulers to be pessimistic of any and all moves by politicians and realistic of their efforts in bettering their lot, having seen all the games played with their livelihoods over the years by the mainland dynasties, the Japanese, the KMT and the DPP.[/quote] THANK YOU!!
[quote=“KeithZhao”][quote=“Belgian Pie”]
Don’t forget the Germans, that’s why Qingdao is still known at present … the beer, a left over from German colonial times.
[/quote]
Yeah…sort of. you know , German guys leave better reputation than japs among our local folks…even though they were all evil invaders in our text-book.[/quote]
Hehe, Germans and Japanese are evil invaders in our textbooks too 
The startling news on the reason why some old Taiwanese have fond memories of Japanese Occupation generally falls on one singular factor; loyalty towards the land they called home. Except for the aborigines and those with Chinese nationalists who put on equally armed fierce fights against the Japanese invaders, the rests are generally backbenchers, willingly to kowtow to the Japanese. When freedom fighters roam the lands in all other countries from Japanese colonizers, the Taiwanese went along with the Japanese colonial authorities eager to become imperial subjects (or slaves). The other country which was willing to compromise with Japan then, is Thailand but they are never being colonized.
–
[quote=“TaipeiDawg”][quote=“ac_dropout”]But they are a minority like the contemporary Taiwanese that are fluent in English and live like Westerners. And they too speak very little Mandarin as well.[/quote] What?? :loco: When was the last time you were actually in Taiwan??
[quote=“ac_dropout”]The reality of Taiwanese is that they will be opportunitist. The next opportunity is on the mainland. So those that wax about the “good ole days” under the sphere of influence of Japan or the USA will be in the minority in the future.[/quote] People who recall the “good old days” are no different than you who seems to be forever stuck in the “bad old days” of 30+ years ago in the martial law era when you were discriminated against by Taiwanese. If the next opportunity for Taiwan is with the Mainland then the people of Taiwan will decide when and how to take advantage of it. It’s not like Taiwan must disengage from one to embrace the other.
Yes the green little Passport that proudly states in large blinking lights, Republic of China, on them and in tiny little barely legible subtext, Taiwan, on the bottom in English. Where as the Chinese text only states ROC. No where to be found are the Taiwanese characters or Japanese characters for the symbol of Taiwan.
Not to mention the proud display of the KMT symbol on the passport, gawd forbid if the DPP ever put their symbol on the passport.
In my ROC passport I see my English name and my Chinese name, no where do I find my Taiwanese name nor Japanese name.
So where is this State of Taiwan that these imaginary Taiwanese citizens claim to be from again? Can anyone point to it on the map? Because I haven’t a clue where Taiwanese citizens come from legally.
Unless the uneducated masses believe being a large ethnic group on Taiwan with renew nationalistic feeling conveys the establishment of a State with actual citizens…good luck with applying for visa abroad.
Let’s look at my National ID card 中華民國國民身分證. Once again no where to be found are any indication of Taiwanese or Japanese. The 2 digit year is oddly 11 years off the calendar year. Was that the establishment of a new Taiwanese or Japanese governement? Oh, I’ve been informed that it coincides with the establishment of a democratic Chinese government called ROC.
So yeah unless you subscribe to LTH neo-Taiwanese. Taiwanese will alway mean the Hoklo on Taiwan. Because you can ask any of the participants here who are of aboriginal or WSR descent if they ever felt embraced by the “Daiwanlang.”
not 11, but 1911…
Anyway, does anyone here understand the fact that Taiwanese where never even given the chance of saying something?
At first they were “sold” by the Qing Dinasty, and then they became part of Japan. Because Taiwan was a backwater lost in the middle of the ocean and with no interest to Japanese, they even thought of selling it to France in exchange for much needed supplies (as I said before, had they found oil in Manchuria, Asia would be a different place now). It took 3 governors in Taiwan to make Japan understand the potential of the island. Then it developed into a normal Japanese place (which is the same to say light years ahead China). The funny part is that people, these days, take Japanese development as for something the KMT did. In fact, in terms of development, you can take Taipei and it’s underdeveloped sewer system as an example of how things went. The railway system is another prime example of the no development of Taiwan in the first 30 years of KMT rule. I believe that it was until they finally realised that they had to stay here, that they started to develop this island. Interesting fact is that people know they were part of Japan for 60 years… but almost none has any idea of what happened in those 60 years. The history books you learn over here also almost mention anything about Taiwan in the Japanese occupation. This, I believe, is to make sure people will not acknowledge how bad the CKS and CKS2 governments where.
Now you ask people if they believe if they are Chinese or Taiwanese? For the most, I think they believe they are Chinese of Taiwanese Nationality. This has to do with the Sinonization that they went through, and the fact that there is still a large portion of people who came from the mainland not so long ago, and their second and third generations.
They can say whatever they want now. Unfortunately it is nothing of any consequence at this time. The son of Taiwan has the highest office in Taiwan now. What chances are left on Taiwan that the Taiwanese don’t have a shot at?
Sleeping with foreign women? Yup they can do that
Sleeping with WSR women? Yup they can do that too
Sleeping with Japanese women? Yup they can do that
Make Rated III VCD? Yup they can do that
Moving their business to the Mainland? Yup that too
Try to get dual citizenship to avoid arrest in Taiwan for grand theft? Yup that too
Get SOGO gift certificate? Yup that too
Not appear in court because of SOGO gift certificates? Check
Can’t be the victim forever. Scapegoating the “Chinese” is not a solution.
Uhm, the “Taiwanese” as they are called were the first ones to bring Chinese culture to the island. The aboriginals were accultured by these first Chinese immigrants…oh I mean Taiwanese.
Because even if every citizen in ROC claims not to be Chinese, the ensuing mess that follows will land squarely on the “Taiwanese” shoulders.
Inventing a culture or renaming a culture to something else for the sake of a half bake political solution such as TI is well…moronic.
[quote=“beebee”]The startling news on the reason why some old Taiwanese have fond memories of Japanese Occupation generally falls on one singular factor; loyalty towards the land they called home. Except for the aborigines and those with Chinese nationalists who put on equally armed fierce fights against the Japanese invaders, the rests are generally backbenchers, willingly to kowtow to the Japanese. When freedom fighters roam the lands in all other countries from Japanese colonizers, the Taiwanese went along with the Japanese colonial authorities eager to become imperial subjects (or slaves). The other country which was willing to compromise with Japan then, is Thailand but they are never being colonized.
–[/quote]
wrong. while you allude to the fact that there was some resistance initially, the chinese nationalists you mention must have had their ardor quenched by the fact that China SOLD TAIWAN DOWN THE RIVER TO GET JAPAN OFF THEIR BACK. it’s not like Japan just marched in one morning and took over, they got it signed sealed and delivered. kinda made it futile to be a chinese nationalist back then no? not only were you going to get shot by the japanese, but it would be for someone who sold you out. you start to see why the taiwanese are confused in their identity.
How come only AC & BeeBee don’t get the real intent of this thread?
Holy double posts!
What has always bothered Snake Eyes is the notion of who gets to claim he is (culturally) Chinese, and criticize another for not being (culturally) Chinese, when in reality, it’s an excuse for something else entirely.
E.g.
-
The Taiwan (waishengren) who thinks he’s more Chinese (from now on “culturally”) than the PRC guy whom he looks down on.
-
The Honger who thinks he’s more Chinese than the ABC by default.
-
The older generation who think they alone safeguard all of Chinese cultural values and look down on everyone else, and ignore “modern Chinese culture” as too “foreign”.
A person meets another at a crossroads. Who is host and who is guest?
Who’s more Chinese? The farmer in Shaanxi whose ancestors have been farming the land since Mr. Liu became Emperor. The Hong Kong banker who speaks Cantonese mixed with English. The Taiwan benshenren whose family have been on Formosa since before the Ming. The ABC who was born in China, but moved to the West, but can still speak fluent Mandarin (+another dialect). The merchant from the Tang dynasty? The soldier from Wei? Where does it stop?
It’s a silly question if you ask me. Homey don’t play that.
We have the natural right to be aggrieved of the events but it’s kind of off the mark on your argument;
-
China did not sell Taiwan voluntarily to Japan in the similar manner as Russia sold Alaska to US. She was forced to cede Taiwan after 1st Sino-Japan War. Prior to that, Japan had unsuccessfully invaded Taiwan just they had shamefully pillaged coastal regions of China for ages.
-
At the time of great desperations and humiliations afflicted by foreigners on the final years of imperial China, it’s not that Taiwan was specifically selected. Hongkong and Macau was forced to cede. Territorial concessions (colonies) was granted to Western powers right in the heart of mainland China. It only ended with the final collapse of the empire.
-
It’s not that Taiwanese are generally confused with their identify. It just spoils on certain self-interest groups who twist events for their own gains. At the time of Japanese colonizers, peoples of occupied countries took up arms to resist. Only in Taiwan, did we discover collaborators who were willing to conpire with the invaders for a small piece of pie.
-
Historical facts never elude me that it’s the aborigines who resisted the Japanese in the initial years with subsequent rebellions staged by Chinese nationalists.
-
They (the TIs suckers) have no shame nowadays to take credit as if they are the ones who fought and won the war.
–
Double standards! As if all the small dynasties and kingdoms voluntarily combined into China as it is today. China’s then leaders didn’t have to sign the treaty giving away Taiwan, even though doing so that would’ve likely resulted in their execution. Shows they cared more about their lives than “Chinese unity”.
You actually buy into the “Century of Humiliation” propaganda crap? So you have no blame on the incompetence of China’s Qing dynasty and the selfishness of Empress Dowager Cixi?
That must be some huge self-interest group for it to make up the voting majority of Taiwan. Are you sure they aren’t called the “Taiwanese”?
Wait, are they occupiers, invaders, or colonizers? Please, make up your mind! Yes occupied countries tend to resist, kind of like the 100 or so rebellions and uprisings during the Qing dynasty occupation of Taiwan.
That’s what the Nationalists kept telling the Americans even though its well noted in various American texts that the few rebellions had no nationalist involvement and were almost entirely Aborigine. Also WW2 intelligence from “Nationalist spies in Formosa” were shown to be fabricated nonsense without a hint of reality.
The retards (Chinese Apologists/KMT Apologists) have no shame nowadays and take credit as if they are the ones who fought the Japanese in WW2 and won the war with no mention of the Americans.
Taiwanese were always opportunist. I don’t why it is considered so bad to align oneself with PRC as it rises. Can anyone give a coherent answer to why it is bad thing?
Taiwanese switch allegiance all the time.
1.2 million Taiwanese take advantage of living on the PRC now. 1 million Taiwanese live in the USA. 1 million Taiwanese live in Australia. What do these Taiwanese know that those stuck on the island don’t know?
Am I the only one that thinks continued barriers to the PRC because of 228 or because of KMT past actions, which have been forwarded by TI supporters, to be irrelevant to the Strait Issue?