How taiwanese people regard/regarded themselves

Politics Taiwan Politics
61

beebee, Macau was ruled by the Portuguese for 329 years. If you doubt this, then just go there, it is not like the “World Heritage Monuments” there where built in the end of the 19th century, where they?.

AC, people here just want the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth… and that is not what they are getting. Can you give me a Taiwanese School history book who speaks more than 2 pages about the 60 years of the Japanese Occupation? Or do they have to spend that whole period talking about the KMT glorious fights against the Imperial Army and the CCP inglorious fights against the KMT? The whole history people learned in Taiwan is fabricated and made as propaganda for the KMT. Where in the democratic world you see the self-given nicknames of the KMT “great” leaders splashed in every single town of a country. Look for one single street, building or Institute in Portugal named after the ancient dictator. You might find some boards of the old dictatorship time in some buildings made in that period, but they are there as a reminder for younger generations of those days. And don’t worry, we do spend a full year studying the 20th century in Portugal and in the world. And we fully know that we enjoyed the #1 growth rate in Europe in the 1960’s, but the fact that he left >20% of illiterate population, and around 40% with only basic education made Portugal loose it’s advantage soon after the regime crumbled (specially after the refuse of Salazar to give independence to the colonies, which leaded to wars that couldn’t be won by such a small and unpopulated country).

The question in Taiwan is that this is still a transition government (between the one party rule to a full democracy), where one of it’s neighbours tries to undermine it. If China was ever friendly with Taiwan, it would be it any way. but we all know it is not like that.

For the millions of Taiwanese living in China now, that was something to be expected as soon as the investment in China from Taiwan started to increase exponentially (after decades of prohibition). This also reveals that Taiwanese don’t trust Chinese…

Another thing that dazzles me: If the KMT made such a good job in Taiwan, how come Taiwan cities look (and are) a lot worse than Japanese cities of the same size? There must be something wrong here no?

62

ROC history is not frabricated. That much cannot be said of DPP version of history.

I think one can blame the current DPP adminstration for everything, even poor city planning.

European history is pretty short compared to Chinese history. Come on a few kings, a plague, religious oppression or two.

There’s 5000 years of history to cover for the standardized exams, 2 pages for Taiwan is more than enough.

63

not really

if you really look at history books, then you’ll see that most probably, the biggest volume of information would come from after the 1500’s.

And how come European History is short? In which particular aspect? Evidence of permanent settlement dates from the 7th millennium BC in Bulgaria, Romania and Greece. That makes 9000 years ago. The Lusitania story started in the Neolithic, so that makes a little less than 8000 years ago (that is the part where Portugal story starts, so, if you really missed something, besides my country having around 900 years of age, we do have 8000 years of history).

But then again, compile me 100 historical events per century in the 5000 years of Chinese History…

64

This statement is utterly illogical. The DPP has only been in power since 2000, and wasn’t responsible for any of Taiwan’s urban planning that occurred in the preceding 50 years.

Most Taiwanese whom I’ve asked about the hideous architecture and crammed lanes and alleys without sidewalks have told me that the Chinese Nationalist Party built alot of “temporary” structures because they assumed they would eventually head back to the mainland. They didn’t spend alot of time on urban planning because Taiwan was supposed to be a temporary place of refuge.

Meanwhile, the only halfway aesthetically pleasing/ functional pieces of architecture in Taipei besides the CKS/SYS complexes are the ones built by the Japanese: The Presidential Palace, the old NTU Hospital Building, National Taiwan University, the 228 Museum, the Taiwan History Museum, etc.

I still haven’t made up my mind about 101… :laughing:

65

To understand a meaningful sequence of events of China history, it’s recommended to analyse events happening over the space of thousands of years. One of the most influential doctrines in China history is the evolution of human sharing a common identity forming eventually into a nation. Whether it’s voluntarily or not, constitute part of the evolution.
However in modern world, that doctrine has eventually ceased or significantly reduced as law and order take precedence.

On the treaty giving away Taiwan, it was forcefully dictated by the Japanese. But it’s the will and wish of every Chinese since then that Taiwan will one day be reunited with the Mainland.

[quote=“ShrimpCrackers”]
You actually buy into the “Century of Humiliation” propaganda crap? So you have no blame on the incompetence of China’s Qing dynasty and the selfishness of Empress Dowager Cixi? [/quote]
Iraq will not have collapse without the illegal invasion by US. So is Qing Dynasty. And you’r still feeling proud of Western powers for their heinous crime against humanity then and now, without even a sense of guilt.

[quote=“ShrimpCrackers”]
That must be some huge self-interest group for it to make up the voting majority of Taiwan. Are you sure they aren’t called the “Taiwanese”? [/quote]
It’s hilarious just knowing somebody intend to broadcast some obvious false statistic.

[quote=“ShrimpCrackers”]
Wait, are they occupiers, invaders, or colonizers? Please, make up your mind! Yes occupied countries tend to resist, kind of like the 100 or so rebellions and uprisings during the Qing dynasty occupation of Taiwan.[/quote]
Does it matter?

[quote=“ShrimpCrackers”]
Wait are you implying that the 228 massacres and land seizures by the KMT was a good thing?[/quote]
Don’t blind some other ignoramus with unnecessary reference to 228 incidence. Both of them are not inter-connected.

[quote=“ShrimpCrackers”]
That’s what the Nationalists kept telling the Americans even though its well noted in various American texts that the few rebellions had no nationalist involvement and were almost entirely Aborigine. Also WW2 intelligence from “Nationalist spies in Formosa” were shown to be fabricated nonsense without a hint of reality.?[/quote]
All official record state that credit should be given to the aborigines and the Chinese Nationalists. Whatever news you gather from the so-called American intelligence are not even worth to be published openly.

[quote=“ShrimpCrackers”]
… have no shame nowadays and take credit as if they are the ones who fought the Japanese in WW2 and won the war with no mention of the Americans.[/quote]
Put it nicely, I am no Chinese nor KMT apologists. At least KMT did play whatever small part during WW2 and yet willing to preserve the status quo without being offensive.
Where were those TI heroes during the war? Yes, they were around appeasing the Japanese. All freedom fighters fight for independence during the war, not after when the blood of others have shed and peace is secured. And yet now, they bark around as if they fought for the independence against Japanese occupation. They are not worth a grain of salt, mind you.

[quote=“mr_boogie”]
Macau was ruled by the Portuguese for 329 years.[/quote]
Macau was leased to Portuguese for trading purpose, with the China retaining sovereignty. However the goodwill and generosity of the Chinese was ‘rewarded’ when Portugal declared Macau a colony independent of China in 1849 (after Hongkong was ceded to the British), expelled Chinese officials and soldiers, and thereafter levied taxes on Chinese residents. So much of the goodness of the Portuguese.

–

66

[quote=“beebee”]doctrine has eventually ceased or significantly reduced as law and order take precedence.

On the treaty giving away Taiwan, it was forcefully dictated by the Japanese. But it’s the will and wish of every Chinese since then that Taiwan will one day be reunited with the Mainland.
[/quote]

The treaty of Shimonoseki was signed in perpetuity, unlike Hong Kong and Macau, which if looked at in retrospect looks like China didn’t really give a damm for Taiwan and perhaps didn’t even consider Taiwan part or China. Go fish.

67

[quote=“Mick”]
The treaty of Shimonoseki was signed in perpetuity, unlike Hong Kong and Macau, which if looked at in retrospect looks like China didn’t really give a damm for Taiwan and perhaps didn’t even consider Taiwan part or China. Go fish.[/quote]
In that case, why was Taiwan reverted back to the Chinese Nationalists after WW2. Perpetuity, my foot.

–

68

[quote=“beebee”][quote=“Mick”]
The treaty of Shimonoseki was signed in perpetuity, unlike Hong Kong and Macau, which if looked at in retrospect looks like China didn’t really give a damm for Taiwan and perhaps didn’t even consider Taiwan part or China. Go fish.[/quote]
In that case, why was Taiwan reverted back to the Chinese Nationalists after WW2. Perpetuity, my foot.

–[/quote]
Amazing what a few nukes will do. But it didn’t revert back to Taiwan, it was handed over to the allies , who foolishly gave it to cash my check.

69

beebee, I said ruled… did you get my words wrong or you are just playing stupid? And now they win money on the 2 things Portuguese left to them - tourism and gambling.
And tell me, in which signed document or Treaty did Taiwan reverted to China (whichever China this is).
So beebee, if you are not Chinese nor KMT apologist, than enlighten us all with your tendencies, because I just got a whole lot lost… Or you also believe that the Peanut was the Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces and fought for democracy (à la China Post). Tell me a single town in Taiwan who can compare in terms of quality of life, beauty and order with any Japanese city and I promise I’ll go there to see it with my own eyes. That must mean something (also with the fact that the most organized streets in Taipei where all from the Japanese times. And let us not forget that the KMT almost forgot that Taiwan has east (because they only wanted to be close to China). How many infrastructures where created in 50 years in the East of Taiwan? I think you will find that your hands are more than enough to count it.

I have to say, killing milions and millions of people is part of the evolution of mankind… because that was how the Chinese Common Identity was formed… just kill the ones who are not enough in this CCI thing…
What I don’t understand is why you guys cannot allow a Taiwanese identity in the Chinese Culture.

70

[quote=“mr_boogie”]And now they win money on the 2 things Portuguese left to them - tourism and gambling[/quote].
Every defeated colonizers will tend to pick those successful colonies as if it’s their selfless effort. Hongkong on British, Macau on Portugal, or Taiwan on Japan. I wonder who failed Timor Leste and Angola for a change. I remembered asking somebody when I was in Dili (Capital of Timor Leste) on why the hills surrounding the capital, is bald without any greens. The response was shocking. The story was that the Portuguese harvested all the sandalwood trees from the hills, for export to Europe then?.

More realistically who then build Shanghai and Shenzhen? Aliens from outer space?

[quote=“mr_boogie”]And tell me, in which signed document or Treaty did Taiwan reverted to China (whichever China this is).[/quote].
When Japan unconditionally surrendered to the Allies, it accepted in its Instrument of Surrender the terms of the Potsdam Declaration, directed to surrender Taiwan to the Chinese Nationalists. On Oct 25, 1945, the Nationalists proclaimed “Taiwan Retrocession Day”. Nobody disputed the record at that time. What rights has TIs to deny that now?

[quote=“mr_boogie”]Tell me a single town in Taiwan who can compare in terms of quality of life, beauty and order with any Japanese city and I promise I’ll go there to see it with my own eyes. That must mean something (also with the fact that the most organized streets in Taipei where all from the Japanese times. And let us not forget that the KMT almost forgot that Taiwan has east (because they only wanted to be close to China). How many infrastructures where created in 50 years in the East of Taiwan? I think you will find that your hands are more than enough to count it.).[/quote].
No doubt, credit will be given at free will to the Japanese for their artistic talents. The fascination for Japan Cherry Blossom, sushi, sony…etc is always amazing. Just as I speak and love to hear Hoklo raps 一百万, 流浪到淡水 doesn’t mean I am ultra Hoklo as the TI suckers. But all these are besides the points. The very significant fact that Japan in their evil quest for a greater empire, were willing to bow to a lowest level beyond reasonable words used. So Mr Boogie if you are so forgiven towards the Japanese, why is your hatred towards the Chinese not equally reciprocated remembering that both Mao and CKS have since long gone.

[quote=“mr_boogie”]
I have to say, killing milions and millions of people is part of the evolution of mankind… because that was how the Chinese Common Identity was formed… just kill the ones who are not enough in this CCI thing…[/quote]
Europeans were not much better in their civilisation. Remember Roman Empire (Rome watched and cheered when slaves and Arabs was maimed by Lions), the Christain Crusaders against Arabs, the exploitation of all colonies, WW1, WW2 and WW3 (Armegaddon??).

For once, I will have readily agree with you on this point but will those TIs suckers agree with you.

–

71

mr_boogie,

I know those Japanese were so busy copying the Chinese in terms of architecture, fashion, philosophy. I think you need to a refresher in the history of East Asia. China is once again on the rise and will become the cultural and economic center of the region. It is the rise and fall of nations.

Why would you want to build there? The annual typhoons would damaged whatever you build on that side of the island. The mountain range in the center of the island offers natural protection. Thank goodness you aren’t part of any civil engineering projects in Taiwan.

Just look to Europeans and their bloody history. And they are still bickering about a unifying identity under the EU.

I think it is the other way around. Han culture has demostrated that it can assimilate most cultures and minority groups. PRC has by their count 56 ethnic groups that make up the Chinese. The same cannot be said of Hoklo culture. They can’t even assimilate the Hakka and aboriginals on the island properly.

72

So, the infrastructures created by the Japanese are better than any infrastructure created by the KMT, in your POV, no?
How do you know they cannot assimilate? LTH is Hakka, isn’t he? So, how come there is no assimilation if you define LTH as an Hoklo when in fact he is Hakka… And the candidate for Taipei County for the DPP is what?

Give me a single piece of law erected by the DPP that specifies which ethnicity has more rights than the others (specially Hoklo), because no matter how hard I try, I cannot find anything. Just laws trying to remove extra rights from certain people, that create differentiation. The difference between the KMT policies and the DPP policies, is that the former makes policies for their base (see the Farmers and Fisherman Association ones, plus extra rights for public workers, plus the extra houses for retired generals, etc…). The latter makes laws for everyone.

73

Weren’t the DPP trying to push a law to restrict people not born on Taiwan island from holding office a while ago. Discriminating agianst WSR is just a wonderful way to show how tolerant they are at assimilating people.

Sure LTH was assimilated by the KMT. The DPP and the Hoklo racist would never give LTH a chance to lead them.

74

cctang asked -
"I don’t why it is considered so bad to align oneself with PRC as it rises.
Can anyone give a coherent answer to why it is bad thing? "
-they are a fascist dictaorship!
Next question?

75

tang said:
“I think one can blame the current DPP adminstration
for everything, even poor city planning.”
I knew somebody caused global warming!

76

beebee said;
“One of the most influential doctrines in China (sic) history is the evolution
of human sharing a common identity forming eventually into a nation.
Whether it’s voluntarily or not, constitute part of the evolution.”
According to the Discovery Channel Chinese “history” began when
the most successfully dictatorial warlord commandeered all the lesser
satraps to his obeisance.
While Mao killed more people by number, the first emperor killed more
by ratio of the exant population.

77

" China is once again on the rise and will become the cultural and economic center
of the region. It is the rise and fall of nations."
CLIMB DOWN OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE!

78

[quote=“ccpcannonfodder”]" China is once again on the rise and will become the cultural and economic center
of the region. It is the rise and fall of nations."
CLIMB DOWN OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE![/quote]
I can’t. 20% growth a year makes a huge mountain of gold.
:laughing: :laughing:

79

If the aborigines of Taiwan understand what come up of the doctrine, the
Hoklo group will now be classified as immigrants in Taiwan.
:wink:

80

小赵来自上海吗？还只是给上海网站打工？英文写的不错，值得表扬。
这儿什么鸟都有。。。不过土生土长的台湾人基本没有。台湾社会趋向多元化，对民族概念没有任何共识。我的爱人来自台北，不过以长期定居北美，她个人看法只属于他自己的。

There are a few comments in this thread that I have a hard time agreeing with… and that even includes you, ac. :slight_smile:

First, many Taiwanese perceive themselves as being “more” Chinese because of their adherence to traditional culture. I’ve met many Taiwanese who are as emotionally attached to 繁体字i as mainland Chinese are attached to the island of Taiwan. Taiwan is also filled with various (superstitious) Chinese traditions long extinct on the mainland… at least, urban China.

With Hong Kong, we have the advantage of public opinion surveys. Hong Kong’ers are indeed increasingly describing themselves as “Chinese”, especially in comparison with Taiwan. But they remain less “Chinese” and nationalistic than their mainland Chinese compatriots.

Finally, national/racial identities are often only forged due to conflict and clash with “others”. Any sort of shared “Chinese” identity didn’t exist until China itself was threatened. Today’s growing Taiwanese consciousness should be seen in the same light: there’s been a largely successful campaign in Taiwan that has convinced many, rightly or wrongly, they’re under threat by an external foreign power… Beijing has itself contributed to this over the past 10 years.

In other words, I don’t think Taiwanese social consciousness will necessarily drive cross-strait policy; I think it’s cross-strait policy that will mold Taiwanese (and Chinese) social consciousness. I don’t mean to suggest the two are totally separate… there’s clearly a feedback process here. But I see any such effect as being second-order. I personally think 20 years of Taiwanese and Chinese marrying and working with each other on equal terms will fundamentally change the conflict at hand.

PS. ccpcannonfodder, sure I could get off my horse… but that doesn’t change whether it’s high or not. Keep praising your little Ah-Q pony, and your kids will be standing on the street looking up as I cruise by.