Kindergarten laws


#161

[quote=“wanny”][quote=“bismarck”][quote=“wanny”]I am just wondering,
Does the bu-xi-ban you are working at have any toddler class?
And did those foreign teachers who got deported work for 幼稚園 or 幼兒美語學校?[/quote]
I personally know a girl who studied early childhood development and who was a qualified kindergarten teacher back home who got deported last year for teaching kids under seven at a 幼兒美語學校. They tried to put a spin on it that she wasn’t teaching English, but to no avail.

So, good luck with that.[/quote]
I personally know a girl who studied early childhood development and who was a qualified kindergarten teacher back home==> certificate from oversea is no use in Taiwan.

anyways, so does that mean you can’t even tecah toddlers at a bu-xi-ban?[/quote]
Well she got fine NT$150 000 and deported for doing that. You decide.

That’s about it in a nutshell.


#162

The MOE DOES allow English classes, they just don’t allow more than X hours per week. (Don’t know what the ‘X’ is or even if it is official).


#163

The MOE DOES allow English classes, they just don’t allow more than X hours per week. (Don’t know what the ‘X’ is or even if it is official).[/quote]

So which is it, legal or illegal to teach kids under 7 years of age (is it in fact under 7?)?

If it’s illegal, how are these giant chains like HESS able to operate legally? HESS must be a legal school then but how so if their focus is operating English based kindergartens in Taiwan and employing several hundred foreign native English speakers?

This whole issue has always been very confusing.


#164

The MOE DOES allow English classes, they just don’t allow more than X hours per week. (Don’t know what the ‘X’ is or even if it is official).[/quote]

So which is it, legal or illegal to teach kids under 7 years of age (is it in fact under 7?)?

If it’s illegal, how are these giant chains like HESS able to operate legally? HESS must be a legal school then but how so if their focus is operating English based kindergartens in Taiwan and employing several hundred foreign native English speakers?

This whole issue has always been very confusing.[/quote]

They make you leave the classroom during inspection time.


#165

The police send their kids to Hess. Therefore, when there’s a “raid” scheduled, a telephone call 10 minutes before the inspection means that said inspection is flawless and finds no irregularities.


#166

If you are a teacher, what you should be concerned about is what is or is not illegal FOR YOU.

If you work at a school like Hess who teach some ‘underage’ students, it may or may not be illegal (or at least against MOE regs) FOR THEM. That doesn’t need to concern you.

If you are a standard teacher on a work-visa based ARC, what you need to make sure is that your work visa and ARC are legit and that you are only teaching at the location on your work visa. Otherwise YOU are illegal.


#167

[quote=“Bu Lai En”]If you are a teacher, what you should be concerned about is what is or is not illegal FOR YOU.

If you work at a school like Hess who teach some ‘underage’ students, it may or may not be illegal (or at least against MOE regs) FOR THEM. That doesn’t need to concern you.

If you are a standard teacher on a work-visa based ARC, what you need to make sure is that your work visa and ARC are legit and that you are only teaching at the location on your work visa. Otherwise YOU are illegal.[/quote]
Ok, so what about a person with a JFRV or APRC (open work permit) teaching at a legit kindergarten (kids under seven or six years old)?


#168

This thread has been going for a long time now, and nobody has given a definitive answer yet. I mean, where are the sources? [color=#FF8000]Bu Lai En[/color] raises some salient points. I would really like an answer in legalese, rather than the normal “Oh, your arse is F#&% if you teach kindy, 'cos my mate got deported for it”. Or: “Oh, it’s illegal. Why don’t you respect the Taiwanese laws?” Or: “Don’t whine when you get deported!”. I haven’t seen anyone yet post anything concrete on the subject to discredit [color=#FF8000]Bu Lai En[/color]'s argument. Can anyone post the actual laws?


#169

I think that’s just because it’s as good as common knowledge to anyone that has been here for even a short period of time.

tealit.com/tn.october12003.htm


#170

If you have a JFRV, you aren’t breaking any laws teaching at a kindergarten, except that kindergartens are only supposed to employ qualified teachers (what exactly qualifies as qualified, I’m not sure, and most kindergartens employ unqualified local staff - you’re in exactly the same boat as them). It’s an issue between the school and the MOE.


#171

How come schools ask you to work kindergarten if they know it is illegal.

I have just been doing some spot calls to adverts from tealit and one girl asked if I was fine with working Kindergarten I said yeah I am fine with it, but I am not sure I am.

I don’t want to run the risk of being deported. I didn’t want to disappoint the poor girl on the phone though because she sounded all polite and nice.


#172

It’s like Stonehenge, dude. No one knows for sure what the laws are, who made them, or why. It’s one of those weird Taiwanese mysteries we’ll never get to the bottom of.


#173

[quote=“Shearersheed”]How come schools ask you to work kindergarten if they know it is illegal.

I have just been doing some spot calls to adverts from tealit and one girl asked if I was fine with working Kindergarten I said yeah I am fine with it, but I am not sure I am.

I don’t want to run the risk of being deported. I didn’t want to disappoint the poor girl on the phone though because she sounded all polite and nice.[/quote]

The question comes down to what IS the risk?
You CAN get deported. People do get deported all the time. What risk are you willing to take?


#174

That’s probably a pretty good analogy!

of all the years I’ve been here in Taiwan, I’ve never ever come across any legal citation or codes that have even been paraphrased regarding the illegality of foreign EFL teachers teaching in Kindergartens. Lots of hearsay about “Chad” from Canada who got deported or arrested for teaching in a kindy, etc., but no specific reference to the actual laws.


#175

[quote=“Shimokitazawa”]

of all the years I’ve been here in Taiwan, I’ve never ever come across any legal citation or codes that have even been paraphrased regarding the illegality of foreign EFL teachers teaching in Kindergartens. Lots of hearsay about “Chad” from Canada who got deported or arrested for teaching in a kindy, etc., but no specific reference to the actual laws.[/quote]
And here we go again. Is somebody going to post the actual laws sometime?


#176

[quote=“Shearersheed”]How come schools ask you to work kindergarten if they know it is illegal.

I have just been doing some spot calls to adverts from tealit and one girl asked if I was fine with working Kindergarten I said yeah I am fine with it, but I am not sure I am.

I don’t want to run the risk of being deported. I didn’t want to disappoint the poor girl on the phone though because she sounded all polite and nice.[/quote]

I know mate, it’s fucked. I suggest you don’t work kindy. That nice girl on the phone? Maybe she is recruiting you to fill the space of someone who was deported!


#177

[quote=“BigJohn”][quote=“Shearersheed”]How come schools ask you to work kindergarten if they know it is illegal.

I have just been doing some spot calls to adverts from tealit and one girl asked if I was fine with working Kindergarten I said yeah I am fine with it, but I am not sure I am.

I don’t want to run the risk of being deported. I didn’t want to disappoint the poor girl on the phone though because she sounded all polite and nice.[/quote]

I know mate, it’s fucked. I suggest you don’t work kindy. That nice girl on the phone? Maybe she is recruiting you to fill the space of someone who was deported![/quote]

yeah that thought crossed my mind, I will just not call her back like I said I would when I arrive there


#178

The problem with kindy laws is that they are not equally enforced.


#179

And we have a hard time actually finding specific rules/laws on the matter. When I went down to the FAP to ask about it, the bloke looked confused and referred me to the Ministry of Labour. When I went there, they passed the buck to the MoE. They, in turn, referred me back to the FAP. That said, I have a friend who was deported last year for teaching at a kindy. She had been in Taiwan for six years, five of which was spent working at that kindy, who also had a buxiban (where her ARC was held, and where she taught evening hours). They pass the buck because it’s all seemingly vague, but when they come for you, you will be in shite for something or other.
From what I understand this is a likely scenario. Like my friend, you get an ARC from the buxiban, but you also work kindy hours. You can’t actually get a work permit for the kindy for whatever reason (not actually qualified - early childhood education - to teach kindy, not allowed to teach English for more than X amount of hours or whatever). Then you labour under the impression you’re all legal because you have an ARC and work permit for “Wang’s kindy and buxiban”, although they also have an anqinban and you quite obviously don’t and can’t work there either. Loop hole in this case being, you may be allowed to legally teach at the buxiban branch, but don’t have a work permit for the kindy branch. The MoE leaps on you, because the law states that foreigners need to have work permits for each branch, even of the same company. So when they come calling you’re actually in shite for working at the kindy without a work permit for that branch. Why don’t you have a work permit for that branch? Well, because the school couldn’t get one for you for the kindy branch.
Boom! You’re hit with a NT$150 000 fine and deported for working at a branch without a work permit… :wall:

But it’s not just kindy. One of my best friends in Tainan has been here eight years. He’s a fully qualified and registered elementary school teacher in South Africa. For the last three years he’s been working at “ABC” elementary school in their bilingual department and has students whose parents vary from coppers, FAP, MoE, the mayoral office, NIA etc… It’s a well respected school with a very popular and difficult to get into bilingual program.
However, a quick perusal of his ARC shows that the ARC holder (provider school) isn’t “ABC” elementary school, but actually “ABC” affiliated buxiban across the road from the school. So, in fact he’s working illegally at the elementary school as he doesn’t have a work permit to work there. This causes two problems for him:

  1. This year he wanted to apply for an APRC. Sadly, he doesn’t qualify, because of the above situation, despite earning NT$70k/month, his tax reflects that he makes less than the minimum stipulated amount (as it’s done through the buxiban and not the elementary school).
  2. If someone pisses off the wrong person with guanxi, and the FAP turn up at the school, he will get deported. Not because it’s illegal to teach at an elementary school, but because the elementary school isn’t the provider of his ARC, nor does he have a work permit to work there.

To get around this, most elementary, junior and senior highs (at least in Tainan) are seeking applicants with either a JFRV or an APRC.
However, even with a JFRV or an APRC, you may still be at risk teaching kindy as you’re only allowed to teach a certain amount of English hours at kindies.

Depending on who you get to deal with, you may get off with nothing but a reprimand, but if the school leaves you out to dry (which in my experience, is more likely) you may face a stiff fine at the very least.

Overall, the rules/laws are very infrequently enforced, and you could teach here for years with no trouble. Or you could be unlucky and get in deep crappola. It’s a gamble, a game of odds, but there are risks. And going on about “Show me the Law” won’t help much if you find yourself in the unlucky position faced with an FAP official out to fill his quota or some such… :2cents:

I knew a guy who operated a breakfast shop from the first floor of his home, overstayed his visa by five years and got away with it for that long. Until oneday when he got in an accident, was taken to the hospital and they realised his paper work wasn’t in order.
He’d been in Taiwan for over 20 years, was friends with a retired legislator, the then mayor of Tainan and several other higher ups that he had taught over the years, or whose kids he had taught. Didn’t help him much. After he had initially overstayed he tried to get his connections to help him, but the answer was the same, “Sorry, nothing we can do. Just stay until you get caught, 'cos even if you try to leave now you’ll be in crap.”


#180

Excellent post, bismarck. Pretty much sums up the situation.

You teach under sixes at your own risk, with the advantages of better pay, lower declared tax and pleasant working hours. Most people, as far as I can tell, get away with it. You’re very unlucky if you get into trouble, but you’re in no position to complain if you do. If you do become a victim of the ‘law’ it will almost certainly be the result of some politics going on between school owners and will have nothing to do with law enforcement. The ‘laws’ are arbitrary, unfairly enforced and just plain stupid, but then that’s no different in many countries.