Oops, maybe this goddamn history thing is infectious… :s
And Alien, yeah, I remember that DPP ad too. Underscores the point that this is cultural, not just limited to the KMT.
At dinner with two college students tonight, I couldn’t resist asking them about Hitler. They said “Yeah, he was a bad man.” I asked them where he was from. After a moment, one said “Germany.” I asked when he lived. One said “About a hundred years ago,” but the other interjected “No, he did something about World War II.” I asked what he did. “He was bad.” I asked if they knew what the Holocaust was. Blank stares. Asked for details on “bad.” The answer was “He got people to do everything he said without questioning.” Both then mentioned that they are voting Lien-Soong and won’t come near a referendum ballot…
I’m guessing that all this ties into the education system - despite the “reforms,” there’s still a legacy of authoritarian cultural myopia. My wife used to have to write “Retake the Mainland” at the end of every school essay when she was a kid. She was also once beaten for speaking Taiwanese instead of Mandarin (continuing a fine family tradition - her father was once beaten for speaking Taiwanese instead of Japanese). And she never learned any history of the German theatre of WWII (the subject itself was covered in a day or two), but she did memorize all the Chinese dynasties, rivers, capitals, and railway lines. What’s changed? Okay, no more slogans, students get passing references to Taiwan / the Taiwanese language. But has the teaching of history fundamentally changed? Aren’t the vast majority of schoolteachers here KMT? And hasn’t everyone here - of all political affiliations - passed through roughly the same educational system? Might the rote memorization still rife in education be part of the legacy of authoritarianism - i.e. a convenient substitute for critical thinking?
I somehow doubt international humiliation will change the situation. After all, we’re all stupid. I was recently told “None of you foreigners understand the fact that there’s one China and it’s the Republic of China.” I asked, “You mean six billion plus of us?” and she said “Yes.” I thought I’d snare her with the following little exchange. Asked her what language she speaks. “Chinese.” Asked her what her nationality was. “Chinese.” Asked her what part of China she was from. Defiantly, she said “Taiwan.” This is the same person who recently regaled me with the following insightful comments: “What’s so bad about communism anyway? It’s better suited to Chinese people,” “China is great. They have a lot of great food,” and “I didn’t vote for democracy. Lee Teng-hui forced it on us. Don’t I have a right to vote against it?” What scares me is that she’s not alone. No wonder there haven’t been any Chinese military threats this time around - they don’t need 'em anymore.
I have this surreal mental image of rows and rows of ostriches, heads buried deep in the sand. Maybe I’m just being ethnocentric.
Alas I digress from Hitler, but I suspect it might all be related.
What really bugs me is that every time a Taiwan pol screws up and starts making absurd and offensive Hitler remarks, they always direct their apologies to “offended Jewish groups”. Well, I can see how Jews would be offended, but they’re not the only ones. Anybody with a sense of decency and an understanding of history would be offended. I’m going down to KMT headquarters on Monday to lodge a complaint. :fume:
[quote]
The Remilitarization of the Rhineland (1936)
Having broken the Treaty of Versailles once, Hitler risked doing it a second time by marching 30,000 troops into Cologne on 7th March 1936. France, with 250,000 troops mobilised, remained passive because Britain would not support her. Britain took the view that Germany was
[quote]I’m unclear why the KMT decided to use the same trick.
Why do they keep pushing it? Are they all bloody retarded? [/quote]
Seems like it, doesn’t it?
Maybe the people in Taiwan will elect the kind of leaders they deserve. Bababa said:
I don’t know what circles you swim in, but that’s bullshit. The people on Taiwan know exactly what Hitler was. They know about the Jews. The fact is that they were not Chinese who were gassed so they don’t give a damn. Juba said:
No, so even your defense of Hitler’s democratic votes doesn’t wash the dirt off the KMT. The KMT apparatchiks don’t have your understanding of the details of history.
The ad compares President Chen with Hitler as being one of two dictators. Pathetic considering the dictatorial nature of the KMT until democracy overtook their rustic policies.
Jewish groups get the apologies because they are the ones who complain. There are one or two groups claiming to represent Jews in Taiwan. Tiny as they no doubt are, they have the backing of the influential Anti-Defamation League in the US - and as we know, Taiwanese politicians are very wary of offending Uncle Sam.[/quote]
Oh, it’s definitely right to apologize to the Jewish groups. I just hope the KMT isn’t so deluded as to think that Jews are the only ones offended by such tasteless and ignorant advertisements.
I read the KMT’s so-called apology. It seemed a little grudging to me. They said that since they didn’t mention Jews or the Holocaust in the ad, basically the ad should not have offended anyone.
Frankly, the ad offended me, and I’ not Jewish. I agree with the rabbi in Taiwan who said that what was wrong with this kind of ad is that it trivializes Hitler.
I often hear from Taiwanese people when we discuss Taiwan or China that because I’m a foreigner I just don’t understand. Well, maybe the people using Hitler’s image in ads should stop and think that since they’re not Westerners, they just don’t understand.
Maybe people in Taiwan shouldn’t use iconic images from Western history without at least asking a few foreigners first what kind of reaction they might expect. It would save a lot of face all around.
(This reminds me - when I lived in Korea, a Korean woman I know opened a buxiban, and for the carpet she used huge American flags. I warned her, but she was really surprised when Americans were offended.)
So is the KMT logic that since Hitler used referendums that anyone holding a referendum is Hitler? If the latter is the case, the United States is an authoritarian regime since the public referendum is commonplace.
Or does it mean that a referendum is Hitleresque because it can be used for authoritarian ends? By that “logic,”, elections are also authoritarian since they were held in the former Soviet Union and are still held in China to support the ruling party (um, the CCP). So why don’t the pan-blues just come out against the whole election process then? Surely Lien is pissed that he was born too late and couldn’t just be named successor. Maybe we should just look at the history of who the authoritarians in Taiwan were/are in the first place. Or maybe a class in logic would help.
The sad thing is I know all these overseas Taiwanese who are all intent (at least these guys) on voting for the KMT, because they blame the DPP for all of Taiwan’s woes in these past years rightly or wrongly, I don’t know. And after the voting and self-congratulations on how wonderful it is to participate in democracy, they will go back to their homes in US, Canada, HK, Guam (but not participate there).
of course, my ex’s mom in California voted based on the candidate’s looks and charisma alone. she did not have a clue about what each stood for, and how voting for one might affect the state.
Sometimes I can understand why some lamented the rise of democracy in the 19th century. Mob and rabble power, it was called unkindly, but perhaps not wrongly either, at least not entirely.
Whilst i agree that these ads show extreme lack of taste etc, some of the comments made after are also a little unfair, and a little sad.
Most of the people here are slamming the Taiwanese for their lack of knowledge of atrocities that took place in Europe during WWII, but how many of us if we were really honest had any real idea of Asian history before coming here, and how many still possibly have no real ideas. There are always some that will prove to be the exception, but certainly my history lessons included very few details about Asia other than those that directly related to European countries.
[quote=“Traveller”]but certainly my history lessons included very few details about Asia other than those that directly related to European countries.[/quote]I was never taught about the Nanjing massacre, or 228, or lots of other things that happened in other countries, but I still know that they are bad things. And I’m not trying to be a world leader and so don’t need to be up on world events.
[quote=“Traveller”]Whilst I agree that these ads show extreme lack of taste etc, some of the comments made after are also a little unfair, and a little sad.
Most of the people here are slamming the Taiwanese for their lack of knowledge of atrocities that took place in Europe during WWII, but how many of us if we were really honest had any real idea of Asian history before coming here, and how many still possibly have no real ideas. There are always some that will prove to be the exception, but certainly my history lessons included very few details about Asia other than those that directly related to European countries.[/quote]
I don’t expect people here in Asia to have a lot of knowledge about European or North American history or vice versa. Though it would be nice, it’s an unrealistic expectation. Hell, kids in US have their own problems learning US history.
But having said that, I think that if they don’t know who Hitler is or why he is that bad, they shouldn’t be using his image in the first place. the fact that they are ignorant doesn’t give them free rein to use Hitler images, wear swastikas, and Sieg Heils to every bloody white man. in fact, any person, regardless of nationality, should have the responsibility and the common sense not to use information unless they understand the its implications.
It’s like someone in the west using a picture of the Khmer Rouge to sell liquid detergent “cuz it kills those stains.” ignorance is not an excuse. Would a foreign company using the image of Mao Zedong here be controversial?
[quote=“Traveller”]
Most of the people here are slamming the Taiwanese for their lack of knowledge of atrocities that took place in Europe during WWII, but how many of us if we were really honest had any real idea of Asian history before coming here, and how many still possibly have no real ideas.[/quote]
I see your point, but I disagree. In my state, the highschool history syllabus included major events like the Nanjing Massacre and Japanese biochem warfare experiments in north China. The outside world didn’t really know about 2-28 until decades later, anyway. As BFM implied above, it would be excusable for a Tainan redneck to not understand the significance of Hitler and the holocaust. It is not excusable, though, for a politician with a foreign PhD to use symbols like that. Do we see John Kerry and George Bush comparing each other to people like Mao, CKS or Pol Pot?
I don’t know why CSB is being compared to Hitler. Hitler was a gifted orator, I used to speak German when I was younger. CSB is not. Watching films in history class of Hitler making speeches was intense, he knew how to work a crowd. A model politician, he got the German people to blindly accept his policies without alot of opposition. He however was a very bad man, I hesistate to use the word “evil” because by definition someone who is evil does bad things and knows they were bad.
Maybe CSB goes to the same barber that Hitler went to. They do share the same hair style.
Are you joking or are you really that ignorant? Hitler was a model politician? He got into power through the support of a bunch of thugs - he totally circumvented the democratic process through violence and intimidation. Read a history book already. This is a good one:
What I meant to say was that many of today’s politician’s would want to be as gifted as he was in working a crowd. This is a skill that every politician should possess, the ability to sway a crowd. When CSB or Lien-Soong make speeches I tune out, not many of today’s politicians are very good public speakers, maybe Trudeau, probably the best PM in Canadian history.
Are you joking or are you really that ignorant? Hitler was a model politician? He got into power through the support of a bunch of thugs - he totally circumvented the democratic process through violence and intimidation. Read a history book already. This is a good one:
[/quote]
Whatever you want to say about him you cannot question his political acumen, though they were politics devoid of morality to be sure. Perhaps “model” was not the best choice of words though.
Hitler was a model politician? He got into power through the support of a bunch of thugs - he totally circumvented the democratic process through violence and intimidation. Read a history book already. 
This is a good one:
