Anyone who believes even for a second that there is any reason for respect or serious debate while they threaten their neighbour with 500 ballistic missiles and threats of invasion does not deserve the respect of serious debate.
It has nothing to do with Taiwan independence. It’s more along the lines of “piss off, you fucking commie bullies.”
[quote]However, personal attacks on our intelligence and our ability to understand complex issues have primarily come from forumosa members who have ventured over to our site. As you can see, the responses they have recieved have largely been civil and respectful while strongly disagreeing with their views.
[/quote]
Civil and respectful responses, eh? Do you consider it civil when a poster makes personal attacks against someone (i.e., calling them a liar) rather than make rational replies to the points they’ve made? Is it civil to cloud a debate with accusations of “personal insults” when none have been made, except perhaps by you?
From where I sit, that’s what one of your guys did in discussions with my wife. Granted, some of her comments were a bit extreme. Nevertheless, rather than just responding to her points, one of your guys accused her of misrepresenting her nationality. If that’s not a personal attack, then what is? It is certainly more blunt than anything she posted in response to your lot.
This seems to be an extension of the typical, anti-enlightenment rebuttal given to foreigners when their Chinese partner in debate has run out of solid arguments: “You’re not Chinese, so you could never understand.” Except this treatment is even less civil; if a Chinese poster disagrees with you, then that person is obviously not Chinese. If a Chinese poster has had different experiences from yours, then she is obviously not Chinese. From where I sit, some of your posters don’t seem civil in the least. Even calling her a traitor would have been more polite than the accusations levelled at her by some of your posters. Then somebody accused her of making personal insults. Links, please. Maybe I have thicker skin than your lot (or maybe I’m just more used to her diatribes 
), but I didn’t see any personal insults in her posts. A couple of overstated positions? Sure. Personal insults? Come on. Your lot can’t possibly be that thin-skinned in debate.
I won’t rule it out, but I doubt I’ll be posting much of anything over there. I have a problem with any site whose moderators think one-sided threats of violence are a valid and acceptable tool for solving the cross-strait problem. Talking with people like that is going almost as low as trying to have a debate with a holocaust denier. Unless they were to moderate their views and bring something to a discussion other than the same lines repeated over and over, I don’t see the need to give them the respect implied by being willing to engage them in debate. Of course I hope I’ve just misinterpreted their views. I find it disturbing every time I meet people who are so extreme, regardless of what side of the issue they’re on. It leaves me with little confidence that the Taiwan straits problem will be resolved peacefully.
[quote=“sandman”]
It has nothing to do with Taiwan independence. It’s more along the lines of “piss off, you fucking commie bullies.”[/quote]
[quote=“XiaoRongJi1202”][quote=“lsieh”]
You’ll have to excuse the first impressions. The first group of articles posted on your forum looks like, sounds like, reads like “re-worded” PRC propaganda writings. Hence the strong reactions here.
It will take more time to develop and then we’ll see how it goes. I think it’s too early to tell one way or another. But I would have to agree with the majority of posters here that so far it doesn’t look like you are anything more than a mouth piece for the CCP.
Regards,[/quote]
I think the reason some members here may perceive a propagandistic tone in the articles because they themselves have been exposed to anti-PRC media for too long. And anything that argues for the other side is automatically labeled as “propaganda.” Again, all that I ask for is an open mind and willingness to at least read the articles before dismissing them as garbage just upon reading the title.
By the way, China-Rising.org is truly open to all viewpoints. If someone writes a well-thought pro-Taiwan-independence article, I would be more than happy to post it. The website is ultimately a China-watchers website. It just so happens that the founders are pro-PRC.[/quote]
You may take the following words of unsolicited advice as you wish.
It’s good that C-R group is sincere about having an open-minded and broad dialogue. What needs to be done better in the future is to watch the article’s tone of voice by the C-R authors. This may be a bit difficult being that English may not necessarily be your first language. However, use of improper tone can ruin a perfectly written substantive article. I think a few posters here made a point of this. There’s a difference between being pro-PRC and writing as if the article came from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
Now here’s a $64,000 question, can one be both pro-PRC and pro-TI? 
It amazes me that so many of the posters on that china-rising website think that people in Taiwan are hideously misinformed about (mainland) China but that people in China understand exactly what the situation in Taiwan is?
I would love to have civil discussions about cross-strait issues but I don’t sense that there is the atmosphere for that there. Maybe it will develop in an unexpected way and become more interesting… but I doubt it.
It was set up as a forum with a specific agenda. Even the title says so. To me a truly open forum to promote a viewpoint is a contradicition in terms! Either let’s have the argy-bargy just for the fun of it… or get rid of the forum and just have the propaganda articles.
XiaoRongJi1202:
^^^ Yep, anything can be discussed, but if you’re pro-TI you’re just plain WRONG MISTER! All the tension is a terrible misunderstanding that the Taiwanese BROUGHT UPON THEMSELVES! If the Taiwanese were to simply GROVEL on their KNEES, then all the problems would disappear. We want you to greet us as your long-lost brothers, and we will BOMBARD YOU WITH MISSILES IF YOU DON’T.
Ok, so it’s not all quite as bad as that. Maybe 90%. They are only as loony as assclown_dropkick, and most aren’t that entertaining.
Open a .com.tw website in China??? Forget it. You can’t even access CNN and BBC. Only after moving to taiwan, it struck me HOW MANY webpages you can’t access from China, not only Taiwanese ones (I tried to prepare for moving to Taiwan from Shanghai, looking for housing and other relevant information - I gave up on that). Unfortunately, you actually stop thinking about it when you live in China and are used to getting an error message every second time you try to open a website. The first couple of times, you’ll still wonder why you can’t open that particular website, something completely non-political, just some technical information that would be helpful for work. Then, you get used to it. And then, you move to Taiwan, and suddenly, the error messages just vanish… I can’t remember the last time I couldn’t access a website from here.
I forgot to mention, china-rising.org is hosted in New York. Of course that doesn’t mean that the CCP couldn’t get it shut down if it really wanted to.
Right. Just another bunch of whiners safe on the other side of the ocean. Not a fucking clue. Hey dipshits, why don’t you try setting up your site in Murderingpinkoscumland? Oops, of course, you can’t – you’d be thrown in fucking jail. Wake up you morons. 
Better still, why not place an invitation with Jason Lin and his TI site? You and he are almost exactly the same – blind and loopy. You all should get on like a house on fire.
Anyone have a link to Jason and his Taiwaner buddies?
Not to be ironic…but isn’t Forumosa also hosted in the USA. Los Angeles, CA somewhere.
Perhaps, but it’s not because we’re not permitted to have it in Taiwan. I guess that CR site would last, oh, 30 minutes before the nice kind benevolent chicoms pulled the plug and hauled the owners off to detention. Who knows, in a few months they might even get a trial. Or maybe not.
Why is that ironic? Forumosa is a Taiwan-oriented forum, so if Forumosa is hosted in Taiwan, what difference would it make? Taiwanese government doesn’t shut down websites dealing with cross-strait issues.
Here’s a nice quote from the Anti at the ChinRising site, in response to an article about an unabashed racist winning the GOP nomination for a congressional seat in Tennesse. I’m not registered there yet, so I’m posting here.
china-rising.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=381
[quote][quote]Quote:
“I think his beliefs are not beliefs of any party that I know of,” [/quote]
Ever heard of the Nazi party?
This guy is prime example of how much hidden racism there are in the average white person.[/quote]
[quote=“XiaoRongJi1202”]Hi folks, I am the founder of www.China-Rising.org.
In this thread, I see a lot accusations being thrown that we (the CR staff) are imbeciles, who blindly adhere to the PRC party-line. That is complete balderdash. I, for one, am quite critical of the PRC. I firmly believe that true patriotism is just criticism of the government. In fact, there are times when I verge on the point of being a “China-basher” myself.
[/quote]
I don’t often agree with Xiaorongji (we have encountered one another in other fora), but he doesn’t 100% tow the party line.
Right. Just another bunch of whiners safe on the other side of the ocean. Not a fucking clue. Hey dipshits, why don’t you try setting up your site in Murderingpinkoscumland? Oops, of course, you can’t – you’d be thrown in fucking jail. Wake up you morons. [/quote]
How gracious and eloquent.
For the record, I agree that the current state of China’s human rights is a shame. And if CR were hosted in China, we may be shut down. But I don’t see how ostracizing and desmantling China would help it in anyway. You have to keep the perspective that political freedoms have drastically improved in China during the last 30 years. But then again, I think you are more interested in bashing China, than trying to truly understand the situation.
[quote=“XiaoRongJi1202”]
For the record, I agree that the current state of China’s human rights is a shame. [/quote]
Is that ‘a shame’ as in ‘it’s a shame that Greg and Lisa split-up, they were so good together’? Or is it the (sorry need a better word) Chinglish use which is meant to imply ‘shameful’ or ‘disgraceful’?
Whilst political freedoms may have improved since 1974, they are not as high as they were in 1989, or indeed anywhere near high enough.
[quote=“XiaoRongJi1202”]
But then again, I think you are more interested in bashing China, than trying to truly understand the situation.[/quote]
I think you’ll find most of the posters here undertsand the situation pretty well. The CCP wants a capitalist economy and realises that their legitimacy rests on the economy doing well. They also realise that capitalist economies go through peaks and troughs, and that should the Chinese economy come off the wheels, they will need some good diversionary material to stay in power. Taiwan is the diversion, and the CCP uses it to generate extreme nationalism within China in order to solidify its own position.
As for the charge of China bashing, well if that means calling a spade and spade and saying the truth about the CCP, and not just ignoring its SOPs the I am proud to be a China basher.
It seems to me that no pro-Chinese position could possibly deal adequately with the reality that 99.9 percent of the Taiwanese (regardless of ethnicity) do not want to be under China’s sovereignty, let alone be attacked by China in order to get there.
Nor can a pro-Chinese position adequately deal with the fact that 99.9 percent of Tibetans and Uighurs hate the Chinese. It is impossible for China to become a humane government, while also keeping them under their thrall.
Note that this is not just a problem with communism per se, which could possibly be blamed for many shortcomings. This is a problem with the very concept of “China” as a multinational state.
I personally hope that this state can be dismantled, perhaps through war, so that surrounding peoples can win their freedom.
[quote=“XiaoRongJi1202”]How gracious and eloquent.
For the record, I agree that the current state of China’s human rights is a shame. And if CR were hosted in China, we may be shut down. But I don’t see how ostracizing and desmantling China would help it in anyway. You have to keep the perspective that political freedoms have drastically improved in China during the last 30 years. But then again, I think you are more interested in bashing China, than trying to truly understand the situation.[/quote]
XiaoRongJi1202, can I ask you a question?
Quite apart from the tone in which some of the comments have been made, do you have any idea why some (many?) (most?) people in Taiwan, and many foreigners who live here have no interest at all in being a part of a political China? I mean is it incomprehensible to you?
Personally, I believe that a true nationalism can only be about making your country great for the benefit of it`s people.
I have no interest in making China influential, great and powerful in the world at all. I have no interest in making America influential, great and powerful in the world. I don`t even have an interest in making my own country influential, great and powerful in the world. I only care about making all of those places fair, just and open societies.
In 1922, a province of Ireland was split off from the rest of the country when a local majority was allowed to opt out of the historical path the rest of the nation took. It took most Irish people over seventy years to fully accept that righting that historical injustice by force would be even worse than accepting what had happened. When will China accept that, regardless of your reading of history, the right thing to do now is to let Taiwan deicde its own future?
That just ain’t on. I agree with a lot of the points you’ve made and I think the way Han Chinese and the government treat minorities is sickening. However, those places are already heavily populated with Han Chinese. When the outside world talks of preserving Tibetan or Xinjiang culture (well, who is actually talking about preserving Xinjiang culture? Perhaps we just haven’t been interested in them since they are Muslims), for the most part we are talking about closing the barn door after the horses have bolted. I’ve not been to either Tibet or Xinjiang, but from all accounts I’ve heard from both pro and anti-Beijing people who’ve visited those places, the local culture in its “pure” and independent form is long since dead. The best those people can possibly hope for is trying to get along with the Han and try to preserve as much of their own way of life as possible. Yes, I know that is easier said than done.
If the geopolitics of these areas were different, then the Tibetans and Uygurs might have a hope of running their own show one day. As it is now though, no country of consequence would have much of anything to gain from rooting the Chinese out of Tibet and Xinjiang. These places are extremely remote. The best access routes to them are held by the Chinese. The effort and resources that would have to be spent to kick the Chinese out of Tibet and Xinjiang would make it way too costly for even a superpower like the US. Would we bomb gas fields and pipelines in the west? Sure, if it were necessary to weaken the PRC’s resolve for taking Taiwan by force. Would we conduct a whole campaign to take these areas away from Beijing? I’d say it’s next to impossible. The reasons for doing so just aren’t strong enough.