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Work Teaching English in Taiwan
61

This is getting nasty…tests water with toe before posting.

Fawk it, here goes.

I was a Cram school operator for more than 10 years, and in the countryside especially, old feelings/habits among the Taiwanese die hard. You are blaming the wrong people ImaniOU, they aren’t racist or ignorant, they are simply either stating fact or trying to survive in this business economy. When you run a small business you don’t always have the luxury of crusading for what’s right, even though in your heart you know it’s wrong.

Historically in this culture, white skin was a sign of wealth and power, a status symbol that says in a land of poverty you were wealthy enough to stay out of the sun and not work. Coming here as a foreigner and seeing racism directed at you because you are dark, does not automatically equal the the same historical racism you experienced back home. It is subtly different.

And it’s not just blacks…It’s anyone with dark skin. I’ve run into plenty of people with different ancestral backgrounds having just as much trouble finding work as you did. We can change this with our teachings, but at the same time the individual independent cram school operator has to survive to do so.

I’m not comfortable with this topic. I’m upset that someone with as much passion as yourself had to struggle for so long to find work because of the color of your skin…It sickens me.

But, I can’t condone attacking the foreign business owner either…I’ve been there, and know the ramifications of hiring someone the parents aren’t happy with. TC, Funkymonkey nor anyone else stated they were racist, or have done anything to propagate this attitude. They have to function within the parameters of the business environment, but that doesn’t say they have to agree with it.

I no longer work in this industry, and my current position has had some surprising revelations regarding race that backs up my historical skin color arguement. I work in a factory with approx 40 southeast-asian laborers, from Thailand and Vietnam. I was a bit concerned with how the blue collar Taiwanese laborers would treat their SEA counterparts…

Know what I found?

There isn’t any racism whatsoever…They work together, party together, and after nearly 18 months I have yet to hear a racial slur or argument. There is mutal respect on both sides, and they are treated as equals. Both turn wrenches to survive. It’s among the wealthy and supposedly “educated” white collar populace where skin color racism is at it’s worst…

The very people that send their kids to Cram Schools :loco:

62

If we gave up on the civil rights movement because some people would still be racist even after it succeeded, where would we be?[/quote]

I’m in 100% agreement with ImaniOU here. As they say, if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem. We have a choice of accepting injustice or fighting it. I choose to fight it, even if the prospects of 100% success are nil.[/quote]

The best for ANY teacher to prove his/her worth is to help the school open new classes, put more butts in the seats and make the school a wheelbarrowful of money…what owner in their right friggin mind would fire this teacher, regardless of race, accent, weight or whatever?[/quote]

But to fire a teacher, you must first hire them. And there lies the rub.

And MJB, as I stated earlier, it’s ironic that the greatest ignorance is in education here. And despite how buxiban owners might think of their schools, they are schools designated to educate people, yet are often used to promote ignorance. They prepare students to learn about foreign cultures yet deny them one of the greatest facets of western cultures - diversity and racial harmony. Instead, they seek the whitest-looking person without regards to whether or not that person would make a good teacher.

In the past I said I would remove my photo from my resume and while it did help get my foot in the door, if I got anywhere, the process would stop the moment they saw my skin color. So I said fuck it. I put my picture back on my resume. Yes it meant that I wouldn’t get any responses from schools, but at least they didn’t waste my time. But the funny thing was, while I was getting rejections from schools left and right because of, to quote the IACC, “this is what parents want…” I was getting all sorts of offers to do privates from people who were aware up front that I was black. So, is having a non-white teacher really something that the parents don’t want? Or is it just an excuse some people make or an outdated idea people have when they say this?

From my experience, the only people who seem to believe that parents and customers only want white teachers are the ones who only run the schools, not the ones who fill them with their children or themselves.

Granted, I can only speak about Taipei since I have not sought jobs in other cities…well, not since the first round of rejections I got before arriving. But it’s the same excuse being given here as well. Now either these people who ask me for private lessons are the exception to the rule or some buxiban owners just don’t have much faith in the social intelligence of their clientele.

63

:offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic:

[quote=“Chris”]I think it needs to be made clear that merely stating the reality that there is racism in hiring practices here doesn’t in itself make them racist.

The perception of racism can, however, raise its head when people don’t state this reality as if it is a problem that needs solving.[/quote]

Why doesn’t this fly in IP then Chris, when people stress that removing Saddy was doing something to solve a bigass problem in order to help a whole bunch of people???

64

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]
Having said this, it is my opinion that a business should be permitted to hire the person that the business deems is in its best interests to hire.
If you want to get PC and call this racism, thats your interpretation. Think about what I said. Its called good business.[/quote]
Good business my ass! The largest buxiban chains basically hire anybody yet they make way more money that many of these other schools with their racist hiring practices. Companies that take the risk on diversity by knowing their business and ignoring conventional social “wisdom” reap the rewards in PROFIT. I write this knowing that in a risk averse and generally racist culture it will be rare for someone to see the opportunity in hiring good people regardless of their ethnicity or national origin. Point out the truth about discriminatory hiring practices in Taiwan if you must, but don’t go calling it good business! That’s absurd.

65

[quote=“R. Daneel Olivaw”]
I am much more sympathetic to a person who is stoic than a person who is blaming a badly going job hunt entirely on racism. I"ve heard nice things about you and I respect your ability as a teacher, but in your posts here you sound like you’re whining and passing blame. I don’t believe that’s what’s in your heart, but that’s how it sounds to me.[/quote]

I really resent the fact that you post such a statement about Imaniou. She has withheld her ground here in a far more respectable manner as well as had far more patience that I have when it comes to dealing with the racist attitudes of Taiwan. Stoic is not too far off from being apathic in my book.

I’m not Imaniou,so I won’t hold my tongue on this issue. There are far too many whites who like to believe that when blacks or any other “minority”(what a joke of a word) speaks to the difficulties of living in a society that does not acknowledge their culture or expriences, and when they speak up they are seen as hostile(Blacks),whiners(Mexicans)or passing blame(currently Arabs). IMHO it just scares the shit out some white males to have to face the reality that they aren’t the end all to be all that they were raise on. And to have to face another reality isn’t comfortable.

Call me a racist if you want, but I think I’m pretty much hit my limit with the narrow minded attitudes and brush offs of some of the posts here. They are in the minority but they sure as hell have a reverbating effect.

Nama X :beatnik:

66

That is a very low blow. :fume:

I don’t think you know enough about me or my school to say that.[/quote]

You need some attention don’t you JDSmith? Why in God’s name would you bold school owners when the adjective before it specifies what type of school owner.

Are you Dancing with Chinese now? :loco:

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[quote=“jdsmith”]:offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic:

[quote=“Chris”]I think it needs to be made clear that merely stating the reality that there is racism in hiring practices here doesn’t in itself make them racist.

The perception of racism can, however, raise its head when people don’t state this reality as if it is a problem that needs solving.[/quote]

Why doesn’t this fly in IP then Chris, when people stress that removing Saddy was doing something to solve a bigass problem in order to help a whole bunch of people???[/quote]
:offtopic:
That has more to do with the means of solving a problem than the fact that there is a problem to be solved.

68

[quote=“Toasty”]

  1. arises from the fact that America is by far Taiwan’s largest trading partner in the English speaking world. This has created demand for English language teachers who possess North American accents. [/quote]

Well if this is the arguement, then someone should tell these dumbwads that blacks live in America, and we do have jobs. And that many of the companies they will have to deal with have blacks in managerial positions.

You also forgot that many parents want their kids to learn from NAs because they a planning to move there. So, their kids should be exposed to various skin colors. Unless they are planning to move to Utah. :unamused:

69

I am well aware of the common saying. I adjusted it to reflect that no matter what you say, you’re still talking out of your ass. Don’t flatter yourself into thinking that you’re correcting me. I’ve been using my own version for many years now.

70

[quote]And MJB, as I stated earlier, it’s ironic that the greatest ignorance is in education here. And despite how buxiban owners might think of their schools, they are schools designated to educate people
[/quote]

No, they are designed mostly to teach English. Few buxibans actually educate these kids.

[quote]
yet are often used to promote ignorance.[/quote]
In the students? I don’t think so.

How does A A Apple do this? How does a foreigner promote his culture by leading a reading class? I don’t get it. Are the kids absorbing this via osmossis?

How can this be happening in an English class unless the teachers are constantly switched and new teachers from new places come in? How can a school function under this kind of system? Most schools have fewer than 5 FTs. How can I promote diversity when I’m from NY and our FT is from Utah? Is it our job to promote diversity or teach Engrish?

Maybe in the big white speckled city…but out here in the boonies that shit don’t fly. Most schools want a teacher, ANY teacher who will just show up on time and stay for the length of the contract.

BTW, 95 out of the 100 best teachers of English I have known are Taiwanese.

71

[quote=“Chris”][quote=“jdsmith”]:offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic:

[quote=“Chris”]I think it needs to be made clear that merely stating the reality that there is racism in hiring practices here doesn’t in itself make them racist.

The perception of racism can, however, raise its head when people don’t state this reality as if it is a problem that needs solving.[/quote]

Why doesn’t this fly in IP then Chris, when people stress that removing Saddy was doing something to solve a bigass problem in order to help a whole bunch of people???[/quote]
:offtopic:
That has more to do with the means of solving a problem than the fact that there is a problem to be solved.[/quote]

Yes, but solving a problem once recognized is not always easy my friend. :slight_smile:

72

[quote=“jdsmith”][quote]And MJB, as I stated earlier, it’s ironic that the greatest ignorance is in education here. And despite how buxiban owners might think of their schools, they are schools designated to educate people
[/quote]

No, they are designed mostly to teach English. Few buxibans actually educate these kids.
[/quote]
In my own experience (the locally-owned kindies I worked for an eternity ago), they’re designed to keep rich parents happy - to make them think their kids are being educated.

73

[quote=“jdsmith”][quote=“Chris”][quote=“jdsmith”]:offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic:

[quote=“Chris”]I think it needs to be made clear that merely stating the reality that there is racism in hiring practices here doesn’t in itself make them racist.

The perception of racism can, however, raise its head when people don’t state this reality as if it is a problem that needs solving.[/quote]

Why doesn’t this fly in IP then Chris, when people stress that removing Saddy was doing something to solve a bigass problem in order to help a whole bunch of people???[/quote]
:offtopic:
That has more to do with the means of solving a problem than the fact that there is a problem to be solved.[/quote]

Yes, but solving a problem once recognized is not always easy my friend. :slight_smile:[/quote]

Oh give me a fawkin break. Life isn’t black and white. And solving problems can be solved if one is commited to solving it. Rome wasn’t built in a damned day. So, if you are committed to changing something, then get in their and stick with the damned commitment.

Hell, I don’t know where I would be if Dr. Martin Luther King had said “Oh Fuck all this shite” after his first arrest along with the dog and fire hose attacks. :laughing:

74

I am well aware of the common saying. I adjusted it to reflect that no matter what you say, you’re still talking out of your ass. Don’t flatter yourself into thinking that you’re correcting me. I’ve been using my own version for many years now.[/quote]

Maybe schools aren’t hiring you because of your attitude. :idunno: It probably has nothing to do with the color of your skin.

75

That is a very low blow. :fume:

I don’t think you know enough about me or my school to say that.[/quote]

You need some attention don’t you JDSmith? Why in God’s name would you bold school owners when the adjective before it specifies what type of school owner. [/quote]

Huh? So what does “Foreign ones” refer to then? Oh yes, Foreign school owners, of which I am one.

Is that a problem if I am? I’ve lived here 12 years and owned schools for half that time. It is a business and businesses not run properly will fail.

I think it’s BS to not so slyly imply that ALL Taiwanese owned buxibans owners are racist, and that by understanding why they do what they do, while never condoning it, makes me “one of them.”

Now that’s :loco:

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[quote=“MJB”]Historically in this culture, white skin was a sign of wealth and power, a status symbol that says in a land of poverty you were wealthy enough to stay out of the sun and not work. Coming here as a foreigner and seeing racism directed at you because you are dark, does not automatically equal the the same historical racism you experienced back home. It is subtly different.

And it’s not just blacks…It’s anyone with dark skin. I’ve run into plenty of people with different ancestral backgrounds having just as much trouble finding work as you did.
[/quote]
I’m replying specifically to your post but this is to everyone who makes this kind of comment. Please give black people, and anyone who experiences discrimination based on a dark skin color for that matter, the benefit of the doubt when it comes to identifying and acknowledging the difference between racism here in Taiwan and racism “back home.” Considering that they are the ones with the dark skin, they MIGHT just know this better than you do.

That’s how it generally is isn’t it? The idea of the country bumpkin with no shoes and no teeth being the image of a racist is a falsehood created by “educated” racists in order to feel better about themselves and justify their attitudes. Just like in the good ol’ US of A, it’s in the posh places of Taiwan that I have experienced the most blatant ignorance and vitriolic hatred.

77

[quote=“Chris”][quote=“jdsmith”][quote]And MJB, as I stated earlier, it’s ironic that the greatest ignorance is in education here. And despite how buxiban owners might think of their schools, they are schools designated to educate people
[/quote]

No, they are designed mostly to teach English. Few buxibans actually educate these kids.
[/quote]
In my own experience (the locally-owned kindies I worked for an eternity ago), they’re designed to keep rich parents happy - to make them think their kids are being educated.[/quote]

nail
hammer
head

78

Yes, but solving a problem once recognized is not always easy my friend. :slight_smile:[/quote]

Oh so true!! :slight_smile:

79

[quote=“Namahottie”]

Oh give me a fawkin break. Life isn’t black and white. And solving problems can be solved if one is commited to solving it. Rome wasn’t built in a damned day. So, if you are committed to changing something, then get in their and stick with the damned commitment.

Hell, I don’t know where I would be if Dr. Martin Luther King had said “Oh Fuck all this shite” after his first arrest along with the dog and fire hose attacks. :laughing:[/quote]

What in the hell are you talking about?

Who said changing wasn’t a good idea? You’re preaching to the choir sister.

80

I am well aware of the common saying. I adjusted it to reflect that no matter what you say, you’re still talking out of your ass. Don’t flatter yourself into thinking that you’re correcting me. I’ve been using my own version for many years now.[/quote]

Maybe schools aren’t hiring you because of your attitude. :idunno: It probably has nothing to do with the color of your skin.[/quote]

Ah, “the attitude” thing. :laughing: This is the sister belief of blacks are hostile when they speak about personal expriences. Funkymonkey, just admit to yourself that you hold some attitude yourself about people of color when it comes to them being vocal about being treated less than a white person.