[quote=“ac_dropout”]Kahna,
Some say tom-ae-toe, Some say tom-a-toe.
Some say mistakes, Some say a-cold-calculating-attempt-at-killing-democracy-through-out-right-fraud.[/quote]
That means you admit that Lien and Soong were/are trying to kill democracy!!!
Don’t blame me, that’s the meaning of the words you have written.
ac sounds like another KMT ‘milk drinker’… son-in-law of some high ranking KMT official, his/her Western values blinded.
If this aint the case ac - pls outline your issues clearly as I cannot understand your logic or reasoning.
And no - just cause people dont support the blues doesnt mean they are green, so dont even bother entertaining that arguement.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2004/05/11/455205-ap.html
Oh oh voting irregularities are already popping up.
one precinct in southern Pingtung (Pingdong) handed out only 744 ballots but recorded a total of 954 votes
Chops imprints that don’t match people’s names
6,000 ballots were being disputed. An additional 4,449 ballots were pulled Tuesday for the High Court’s inspection
Lien is already filing for a re-election already. I guess 3rd time’s a charm.[/quote]
i’m puzzled as to why pan-blue folks assume “voting irregularities,” such as they are, would automatically favor their side. does it not matter to them what the nature of these “irregularities” is? does it not matter that some of these “irregularities” end up favoring chen/lu?
do you hear the green camp accusing the blues of cheating when these kinds of irregularities turn up? of course not. because those kinds of occurrences all fall within the margin of error expected for an election of this size. those are random errors that could and do affect both sides, and do not affect the outcome of the election. plus, there has been of yet no hard evidence of a systematic conspiracy. but that doesn’t seem to stop the blues from whining melodramatically about a “corrupt” election and about the “death of democracy,” and accusing the green side of cheating.
let’s be honest here: what do the blues base their accusations of cheating on? what hard evidence have they produced? because the greens could just as easily accuse the blue side of cheating as well, given that many irregularities favor chen/lu. remember: losers can and do cheat also. given the KMT’s history, i would say that they (the blues) almost certainly DID cheat. just because the blues lost, that doesn’t preclude them from suspicion of cheating. in fact, all it tells me is that not only are they inept at gauging the will of the public, they are inept at cheating as well.
nice post carson, like it…your rebuttal mr ac?
Thank you, AWOL, my personal feeling is that the Blues are just bigger jerks.
AC, tom-ae-to, tom-a-to?! What an excellent retort.
Seeing as you are advocating reunification with a communist country, what do you care about democracy for in any case? Surely you believe in bombarding people with propaganda, telling them what is right and not entertaining any contrary beliefs?
Whoops, wait, you’re in the US (a great physical location to really comment knowledgeably on what is happening out here, getting your information from the International Press and your KMT back-slappers), and all of your most ‘persuasive’ reunification arguments have involved saving you money (see other threads), so I guess that answers my question. You’ll blow hot air down your squeaky trumpet about democracy being dead, wait until Lien / Soong finally bully their way in, and then Democracy be Damned!
Like those pesky Hong Kong blokes who stupidly thought that China would really let them have their own democracy!
And if Lien / Soong get it this time round? What about that showing concrete proof that there were voting irregularities? Will you be trumpeting about another recount, this time to absolutely make sure? Will you condone any DPP protests? What do you think about your Blues and their court-cases? About how they’re thoroughly unprepared, dropping the case and then immediately picking it up because they don’t like the judge? How free, fair and democratic is that?
You do realise that there is a vast difference between democratically exercising your rights, and whining like a baby?
[quote=“AWOL”]- pls outline your issues clearly as I cannot understand your logic or reasoning.
[/quote]
hehe. good luck AWOL!
The pan-Blue media is at it once again, making up their own version of the news. They’re playing up the number, scale and impact of voting irregularities so that the gullible or malevolent (hmm – which one is ac_droppings?) will come away expecting the High Court to eventually overturn the election. This of course, will not happen, but the stage is set for Lien and Soong to cry bloody murder when their allegations are shot down in court. (“Of course there was massive fraud – the UDN said so!”)
Who the heck says tom-ae-toe?
[quote=“SCL”]The pan-Blue media is at it once again, making up their own version of the news. They’re playing up the number, scale and impact of voting irregularities so that the gullible or malevolent (hmm – which one is ac_droppings?) will come away expecting the High Court to eventually overturn the election. This of course, will not happen, but the stage is set for Lien and Soong to cry bloody murder when their allegations are shot down in court. (“Of course there was massive fraud – the UDN said so!”)
Who the heck says tom-ae-toe?[/quote][b]
Somebody with the intelligence of Dan Quayle.
[/b]
By the way, after reading all the (hyped) news reports, the only likely change in the vote tally so far seems to be the +50 votes for Chen/Lu in Taizhong mentioned above, and +5 votes in Jinmen (or Mazu, forget which).
The 50 votes for Chen/Lu in Taizhong were mistakenly tallied under the Lien/Soong column (for a net change of 100 chuckle), while the 5 votes for Chen/Lu in Jinmen were somehow missed. And golly gee – both are governed by the KMT. Where’s ac_droppings to cry voting fraud when you need him? 
Most of the disputed ballots were caused by holding the referendum at the same time as the presidential election. Ballots placed in the wrong box.
I
dropout,
i thought it went like this:
pick up election ballot
pick your guy
put it in the election box
STOP - do i want to vote in the referendum?
yes - go on to step 5
no - go home
5.walk across to the other side of the room
6. receive and fill in referendum ballot
7. put it in the referendum box.
your version,
steps 1, 2, 5, 7.
Is California civilized? Switzerland? Demnark?
Just asking.
Mr. He,
The point I was making is that most countries have laws about holding referrendums in conjunctions with other political election. Especailly those concerning the highest office. People are aware referrendums can be used as political tools for other elections.
I was thinking of Switzerland which needs a 6 month buffer between referrendums and other elections.
archangel-x,
Politics does make simple things so difficult. Step 4,5,6,7 should not have even been part of a the presidential election. In retrospect it is clear now.
However, Pres. Chen should have had the wisdom and followed Switzerland example of holding a referrendum at a different time. Instead of fast tracking it and claiming PRC was about to drop a missle on Taiwan yestarday.
See how a rash decision by inept leadership of Chen leads to 4 weeks of protest, 2 weeks of recounting, and 1 reprimand from the USA. This is just domestic affairs. Imagine the chaos this guy could cause internationally. He could be as bad as GW Bush.
This is what happens when you have a minority leadership that is appointed. Just look at the USA and GW Bush. We’re 4 years into already. Unforunately Taiwan doesn’t have the military might nor money to screw up and recover with PRC, like the USA. ROC has very little margin of error in international politics right now.
let’s be clear here - the “rash decision” by chen led to a referendum vote. period. the “rash decision” by lien and jimmy soong, not chen, led to the “4 weeks of protest, 2 weeks of recounting.” who made the decision to riot? who made the decision to clamor for a recount? careful with your overly broad strokes there when you’re wielding that brush of blame.
and the logic that chen’s decisions left them no choice but to riot is tantamount to a mugger claiming that his victim’s resistance left him no choice but to shoot him. the point is, there was a conscious decision made at every point in time, and never at any point was lien/soong left with “no choice” but to riot. they CHOSE to instigate riots.
as far as the “reprimand from the USA,” aren’t you a die hard opponent of the bush administration? why the heck should you care what his administration says to taiwan? and as a loyal taiwanese, as i’m SURE you are, shouldn’t comments from foreign countries attempting to dictate to you your policies anger you?
you still haven’t commented on what you feel is the significance of balloting “irregularities” that gave chen/lu more votes. what do you think happened that caused a number of chen/lu ballots to be counted as lien/soong votes? simple human error? or a gasp sinister conspiracy?
carson71,
I guess you are not a student of linear time. Sure life is just a series of random events and you can interpret them how you see fit. The brush of blame…how quaint.
So I guess DPP roiting in the past were also well planned conscious decision. 228 also a well planned roit. How about the LA roits.
But back on point. So Chen decision to resist the recount or even the start a national investigation to his gun shot wound is also a conscious decision. How convenient.
Yup their track record is lack luster. Wealth was more easily acquired under Clinton.
Because they informed the TI in ROC that they are living a pipe dream if they are planning to use the US military to win their cause now. Only thing this adminstration got right in Strait’s politics.
The USA has been meddling in Taiwan since the hand over to CKS. It has never hid the fact that Taiwan is just a pawn in Sino-USA relationships. CKS was the only person in Taiwan that had enough balls to tell USA and PRC and Japanese sympathisers to piss off. Everyone else after him has been too busy playing kiss-ass to AIT and hiding behind 7th fleet apron.
I have issues with sycophant behavior on an international scale, it reflects badly on those of us from Taiwan. I would even have more respect for Pres Chen if he framed his TI politics like so, “I like being President. Power is Great. Screw 5 million of you ROC citizens that are going to die in the first barrage. I’m going to start a war and get USA soldiers to die for us so I can have an independent country.”
[quote=“ac_dropout”]
The USA has been meddling in Taiwan since the hand over to CKS. It has never hid the fact that Taiwan is just a pawn in Sino-USA relationships. CKS was the only person in Taiwan that had enough balls to tell USA and PRC and Japanese sympathisers to piss off. [/quote]
When and how did CKS tell the USA to piss off?
[quote][quote=“ac_dropout”]carson71,
I guess you are not a student of linear time. Sure life is just a series of random events and you can interpret them how you see fit. The brush of blame…how quaint.
So I guess DPP roiting in the past were also well planned conscious decision. 228 also a well planned roit. How about the LA roits. [/quote]
you missed my point. i did not say every event in life is based on a conscious decision. i said the riots by pan-blues were the result of conscious decisions by lien/soong. do you deny that?
it was a conscious decision for him to agree to a recount, and it was a conscious decision for him to submit to the “independent” investigation of henry lee and his american team. and it was a conscious decision for lien/soong to refuse to honor the results of either.
Because they informed the TI in ROC that they are living a pipe dream if they are planning to use the US military to win their cause now. Only thing this adminstration got right in Strait’s politics.[/quote][/quote]
that doesn’t answer the question.
CKS allegedly telling the US off…how laughable. but that’s another topic i would be happy to talk about on another thread.
i’ll ask again, for anybody who cares to answer: what do you feel is the significance of balloting “irregularities” that gave Chen/lu more votes. what do you think happened that caused a number of Chen/lu ballots to be counted as lien/soong votes? simple human error? or a sinister conspiracy?
the media yesterday reported thus far some 14,000 irregular ballots. anyone know the make-up of these ballots? where are they from?
Flicka,
USA suggested to CKS during the Sino-Japanese war to attack the Japanese which would help the USA in the Pacific theater during WWII. CKS told USA to piss off as he was getting ready to fight the CPP, which he saw as a greater threat.
carson71,
I wish I was a telepath, i’d be a lot richer by now. How should I know? My real life persona is not Lien nor Soong. All I observed was 4 weeks of protest. Only a few of them ended in roits. The rest about what Lien or Soong was thinking is beyond me.
It would be like me asking you was Pres Chen deliberately trying to upset pro-Blue supporters during [name any public appearance]? Thus setting the emotional environment for a roit.
The question on everyone’s mind from now to when ROC is unified with PRC is the legitimacy of this man as President that might have staged his own assassination attempt. The current investigation is still at the local police level, it is not a national investigation. Chen is not really using all of ROC resources to find his “killers,” but he sure is spending a lot of time on TI issues.
[quote]why the heck should you care what his administration says to Taiwan?
Because they informed the TI in ROC that they are living a pipe dream if they are planning to use the US military to win their cause now. Only thing this adminstration got right in Strait’s politics.
that doesn’t answer the question. [/quote]
Why not? It implies that I understand USA importance in the tri-lateral relationship the allows ROC to exist in status quo. TI is a pipe dream without the USA.
Did something get lost in translation? What paradigm were you trying to imply with your first question?
Maybe I’m too dense, set up another bait question and maybe the trap will fall down this time.