Wow, Mr He, I think we are living a shared life 
I think someone, not me, should write a book about how to marry into a Taiwanese family. That is the way it is, you donât marry the girl, you marry the whole family.
Has anyone tried marrying the Taiwanese girl and then taking her back home with you? Does the âmarrying into the whole familyâ still apply then?
And my doesnât that come as a rude shock when in order of events:
(1) A swirling head hits the pillow 5:30 am Saturday after my allotted Friday night on the town when âmaâ calls up to invite me to do some exercise cause Iâm getting fat.
(2) 3:00 am on a week night when âmaâ calls to ask if I could take her to hospital for her âvertigoâ. Iâve got some medical background and have taken her to clinics in the past and sheâs quite impressed by the way I harangue doctors with sharp questions over folow up tests, what medications and so on. In hindsight, a silly showing of my cards.
(3) Being expected to turn up for âbai baiâ time . . . sneakily coz "ba"s a christian.
(4) The first thing little broâ does when he gets back into town from his exile in the Mainland is to call and scream in my ear, âAh Cheng, I got some Gaoliang, lets get hammered.â The missus patiently suggests I go pick up lil broâ and buy some snacks. This is mid-week of course and should I have suggested âlook love, Iâm out with the lads and weâve had a few but Iâm going to kick around because its such funâ âni zenme hui zheyangâ
I knew Iâd broken through some curtain when this next one happened.
(5) Next in line broâ suggests I come visit him in his exile in China and that we really have to go whoring cause the girlâs are drop dead gorgeous and cheap as blazes. Giggles but no hint of obstruction from âmaâ and wife.
(6) Lilâ broâ introduces his buddy who can âget anything you want or sort out any problem . . . Fancy a girl?â You talk to the chap and realise he has a deep understanding of Australiaâs Chinese gangster culture and an overly keen interest in firearms.
And so on.
HG
We have been back and no it doesnât apply at home, well not to the same extent.
Westerners families tend to be much more nuclear than the extended type families that exist in Taiwan. In NZ it would be kind of like getting married to a Samoan family or other pacific islander.
The difference lies in the concept of family and extended family, in Taiwan the line is ver fuzzy. For example the whole âmy brotherâ or âmy sisterâ thing, when said in English, and what they really mean is âCousinâ. In some parts of my in-laws family I wouldnât have a clue as to who is really related.
Western families, from my own experience, are not like that.
Are Italian families different? That could be one exception. ???
Wow, my experience being married to a Taiwanese is as far from you guysâ as possible. The family has less involvement in our lives than my family in Canada. I think Iâm missing something.
Theyâre ignoring you. You donât exist 
Iâd say thatâs true about the brother-in-law but the ma-in-law adores me. Strangely my brother-in-laws wifeâs parents, especially the old Colonel, really likes me too. They always ask when Iâm coming round to see them. They just donât interfere in our lives or care if I ask them have they eaten yet?
Well, its a few words from me again. First off I think that writing to complete strangers for advice has paid off. I can see many options now, and understand which of them relate to how I want to deal with things. I think that the Bassman, Mucha man and a few others have hit the nail on the head, for me. I know for others that they would deal with this by getting revenge, getting drunk etc. But that isnât me. The general theme of moving out applies strongly, and the low key bon voyage is definitely a must. No point in burning bridges, in my opinion. I have found a few good places in Taichung, and having something else to occupy my mind with has certainly lifted my mood. I bought the old man a peace offering today and mustered together a few Chinese sentences. He was definitely appreciative, albeit not by western standards.
One final thought⌠I have trouble in understanding some of the name calling that went on in the posts. In particular references to me being âspineless, and lacking ballsâ. I did come seeking advice at a low point in my life, so its not nice to kick a fella when he is down. Also, I would like to defend the size of my nuts here. I did sell my flat and car, in London, leave my job, leave my family and friends and generally turn my back on everything I know and move to a small town on the other side of the world for the sake of a relationship. Gutless, or balls of steel? I ask you to think back to when you arrived here. Did you feel spineless?
I hope i made a point here.
The Patterson.
Patterson.
There are wankers everywhere.
Nice touch with the few sentences to the old man. Praise doesnât fall from Taiwanese mouths quite as readily as criticism. Youâll hear it soon enough, âoh, youâve put on weightâ âthat shirt makes you look like a complete dropkick,â etc etc. Subtlety is the key and it takes some getting used to. Youâll soon enough be capable of deciphering grannyâs sneer as either disdain or approval. In the interim its a tough old road made easier by friends.
Have some guanxi, youâve earnt it . . . and by the sounds of it made some in real life through this here wee little community. Enjoy.
HG
Keep in touch and remember to invite us to the eventual wedding
I have tried that, and well, it didnât really work out. Actually, what I felt was that a lot of young Taiwanese women marrying Danes end up feeling very lonely because they have lost their extended family. They then settle down in a pattern, where the see mother-in-law as an enemy trying to control everything, even though she stays away unless invited an d only affer an opinion when called for. This can then drive you to a point, where you get a choice: 1. divorce. 2 moving back to Taiwan in order to get her happier.
Itâs my impression that a foreigner will have an easier time adjusting here than a Chinese the big abroad.
Moreover, even some independent Taiwanese girls canât live without their family or a lot of inlaws, where they have a specific position, be it a lowly one at worst.
Huang, I feel with you. Donât tell your elderly inlaws anything they might use. Do go to China - itâs not that cheap though, so you might want to print some fake âbig boss on expat contract namecardsâ go to the goose and duck in Beijing and try your luck there.
[quote=âpattersonâ]Well, its a few words from me again. First off I think that writing to complete strangers for advice has paid off. I can see many options now, and understand which of them relate to how I want to deal with things. I think that the Bassman, Mucha (Muzha) man and a few others have hit the nail on the head, for me. I know for others that they would deal with this by getting revenge, getting drunk etc. But that isnât me. The general theme of moving out applies strongly, and the low key bon voyage is definitely a must. No point in burning bridges, in my opinion. I have found a few good places in Taichung (Taizhong), and having something else to occupy my mind with has certainly lifted my mood. I bought the old man a peace offering today and mustered together a few Chinese sentences. He was definitely appreciative, albeit not by western standards.
One final thought⌠I have trouble in understanding some of the name calling that went on in the posts. In particular references to me being âspineless, and lacking ballsâ. I did come seeking advice at a low point in my life, so its not nice to kick a fella when he is down. Also, I would like to defend the size of my nuts here. I did sell my flat and car, in London, leave my job, leave my family and friends and generally turn my back on everything I know and move to a small town on the other side of the world for the sake of a relationship. Gutless, or balls of steel? I ask you to think back to when you arrived here. Did you feel spineless?
I hope i made a point here.
The Patterson.[/quote]
You certainly do and I wish you luck. It does take balls to come here and stay. The long-termers have jsut seen it all and therefore your travails are more like a newcomerâs trouble.
Moreover, most of us have been more lucky in Taiwan than you have so far. Keep things low key, burning the bridges wonât do any good.
Regarding your GF? Move out and see how things develop. Her behavioral pattern is completely normal for a young Taiwanese girl - not that I say that MiakaW or B.B would behave that way, but a lot would. Most families would also have trouble accepting a foreign son-in-law and would try to make the problem go away. I (and a few other people posting) was just lucky with my in-laws.
Yeah chin up Patto, I remember moving out was the best thing that I did at the time. Youâll find the escape from the âfucking wankerâ mentality that youâve probably had building towards the old man at the moment will soon fade into insignificance. New place, footy on the tv, cans on the floor, jocks hanging from the lamp and the missus in the cot - mate, wonât get much better than that
(ALL APOLOGIES FOR THE LENGTH OF THIS POST EVERYONE! SEEMS LIKE A LONG WAY TO SAY SOME THINGS THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN SAID, BUT HELPED ME GET SOME THINGS STRAIGHT IN MY HEAD THAT I HAVENâT THOUGHT ABOUT IN A LONG TIME.)
Patterson,
Youâre in a bit of a bind. Sounds like youâre moving on. I agree with the advice people have given you so far, but perhaps youâll let me share some of my own experience with you before you make this next step. It sounds like this girl is pretty special, so your next move is a pretty delicate one.
My story has certain parallels with yours, so maybe it will help. Hereâs the back story â I had known this girl for a couple of years. Wonderful girl, had just gotten her US citizenship a couple years before but had grown up with her family in the States. Our Junior year of college I finally talked her into going out on a date, and the relationship just whirlwinded from there. I should mention that she was model-hot, by both Western and Chinese standards, so lots of guys were trying to date her. For me, her being Chinese didnât even enter into the equation of why I wanted to date her. This was my first serious relationship (I was 20) and I had lived abroad a bit growing up but had no real experience with cross cultural relationships. I didnât even consider the ramifications going into the relationship. Why should I? We were in love! Same age, similar goals, blah blah blah. I had my own apartment, and she started coming over after class to do homework, hang out, brought over dinner sometimes, began spending the night. It was idyllic.
Iâll mention again that this was my first serious relationship ever, so at some level I still treated it as a fling even though i knew it wasnât - that was just all I had to compare it to at this point. So one night weâre at my place and she gets a call - her parents wondering where the hell she was and who this guy was sheâd been spending so much time with lately. Next thing I knew, I had a date to meet the parents. So of course this meant meet the entire family. Which meant 4 sisters and a brother, Mom, Dad, and all the boyfriends of said sisters, in a big fancy Chinese restaurant. Iâm sure everyone here can understand this feeling of sheer and utter alienation I had walking into this place in my (then stylish) grunge get-up, ponytail and goatee. Oh yeah, I went over like a fart in church. Name a cliched mistake one can make when meeting the parents from a conservative foreign culture, and Iâll just nod and say âyeah, i did that.â blush. look down at floor. scuff shoe.
Anyway, the point of this part of this part of my story is that youâre bound to have an initial culture shock, and sheâs not going to know exactly WHAT she might need to prepare you for. My girl had grown up in the states, and still wasnât sure what I might need to know and what I might already know, let alone was she able to predict the entire situation. Sheâs in just as tough a spot as you, actually. My first meetings with the entire family (who, though they all grew up in the States and were very exposed to a Western lifestyle and spoke fluent English were still very much entrenched in a Chinese lifestyle) included karaoke, drinking like I never had before, avoiding certain liberal topics of conversation entirely (all of which I found out about AFTER some potentially offensive comment had already passed my lips), not even allowing the parents to KNOW I smoked or drank (ironic, considering all the karaoke and drinking) and learning to master chopsticks. My first meetings with the family were, um⌠less than successful. But I loved this girl, so I stuck it out, swallowed my embarrassment, and did what I had to do.
Co-dependent? Perhaps. Whatâs a relationship but a building of a team and partnership between two people, especially when youâve found that one person that you are willing to sacrifice for? Besides, she who had only ever dated Chinese guys before and spoke Mandarin at home also had her share of adjustments to make.
I had the pleasure of living with this family during the summer between my third and fourth years of college. The difference here is that I was still in America. I had received the chance to do some illustration work with an instructor of mine of some serious notoriety in that profession. It was a small job, and though it was a huge opportunity, I couldnât stay in my apartment for the entire summer just for the one job. My by-then-girlfriend of almost a yearâs time told her parents my situation, and low and behold they almost demanded that I move in with them to save money. Sounds great, right (depending on your point of viewâŚ) Suddenly, this relationship right here in my own country turned into exactly what you are describing in your post â for a time, not forever.
I could do NO right. Sisters complained I didnât clean up enough. I turned on the air-con too much (I am sensitive to heat more than the average Taiwanese who isnât?) and was chastised about that so much that at one point during the summer I sat home alone in above 80 degree Fahrenheit heat with the air con turned off⌠No bedroom contact was allowed between me and the girl who had been sleeping over at my place off and on for the last year. Lack of activity on my part was unforgivably lazy. Etc. I didnât get introduced to all of the family friends. when watching television with the family, the conversation was entirely in Chinese (which i didnât ever pick up until I moved to Taiwan, but thatâs another story). Sound familiar?
Donât get me wrong - my situation was ideal, especially in retrospect. They were all making an effort, I found out, and had actually accepted me as a part of the family - thus the strict treatment. They sort of adopted me for the Summer.
by the end of the story, I was going stir crazy. No privacy (what is up with that, anyway?) and constantly feeling nitpicked, I moved out as soon as the school year started. I felt like I was losing my balls. Not a man. Isolated from my own society, IN MY OWN SOCIETY. I got an apartment, with my girlfriendâs help (hey, we still loved each other) and said my thanks to the family. This went a long way, I think, in their eyes â they kept insisting that I just save money by staying with them, that they would want someone to take care of their daughter if she was so far away from home (other side of US) and that it was ok. But I think in the end they approved (silently) of me moving out.
this is where I made all my big mistakes. I was so starved for privacy and freedom that I started NOT going out when invited by the family, started NOT accepting my girlfriendâs offer to come over after classes, etc. Big mistake. this wasnât the end, we were together for a few years afterward, but things were never quite the same, though in hindsight they had the opportunity to move in such positive directions.
the relationship has been over for almost 6 years now (and ironically, it ended right after we made it to Taipei - the stress of new environments is really hell on a relationship), but over the last couple of years of the relationship I became extremely close with that whole family. I once drove the father home from Vegas after a trip in the middle of the night. Her brother and sisters are some of my best friends to this day, always in touch by email or here in Taipei. I actually have a second family, even though I never married into it. When we broke up, everyone was sad.
things didnât work, but I canât help but chalk that up to youth on my part, and a hastiness to get out of a situation I thought was stifling at the time. I know now that there were some things I thought were cultural differences that are in fact just the differences between men and women, and some things that I have learned are just culturally out of whack.
Once at dinner I found out (several years later) that I was the first white person to sit at their dinner table. They just didnât know how to treat me, so they treated me like they treated each other - and that familiarity to me was a little bit blunt and critical. to them, that was acceptance.
so even though you should move out and assert some independence, remember that if you really care about this girl, you should give it a chance. It might just be that what youâre experiencing is a girlfriend who just doesnât know what information you need to know to cope in a world that she is totally familiar and comfortable with, and a family that just doesnât know how to cope with the world she brought home with her.
Get some distance - itâll help either way. Youâll know in the end.
By the way, I donât know if I communicated this clearly enough, but a lot of what I thought was not friendly behavior was MY INTERPRETATION of what was going on, not necessarily the way things were intended. I have also left out a HUGE amount of really nice things that happened because they might not be so relevant here, and dammit - this post was long enough
Travis
Nie post Travis. You should should think about also putting it in the âIs there a one for all of usâ forum.
Glad we could all be of help patterson. Good luck.
Thank Travis for that great post and I bet a few of us here can related to that and share your emotionâŚ
welcome to the board!!
wow. Travis add yourself to the list of: those who helped the patterson, instead of the : total wanker advice, list. Sounds like you lived my life for me. Shame it didnt work out for you guys.
I think this kid is gonna be o.k.
[quote=âpattersonâ]wow. Travis add yourself to the list of: those who helped the patterson, instead of the : total wanker advice, list. Sounds like you lived my life for me. Shame it didnt work out for you guys.
I think this kid is gonna be o.k.[/quote]
Just do things slowly. Avoid confrontations at any cost. Make sure to give them âfaceâ - praise them for the hospitality etc.
Actually, the idea with starting a bushiban is a good one, if you make sure that you get a fair share of the proceeds. You might end up well off and it smells as an attempt to help, not one to drive you out. From their side it is: âWhat will our new son-in-law do? Foreigners teach English, so letâs get him established in that industry as a helping handâ.
If they hated you, they would not allow you to stay in their home under any circumstances. Remember that, and take the rest as a cultural issue. The father might wish that you go away and leave his daughter alone, but he would not show it.
You are suffering from a culture shock as well, but thatâs not news to you, I guess. Moreover, thatâs perfectly normal - everybody here have been thru it.
Keep the good spirits up. I get annoyed about the lack of bars in Yangmei as well - havenât been to a decent bar for months.
Before and after you move out, keep a courteous and low profile. Donât forget to buy them presents and thank them a lot when you escape.
Geez Travis, your story couple with REMâs everybody hurts gently mellowing in the background and my beagle licking my toes has really touched me. Guanxi for your experience.
[quote=âpattersonâ]wow. Travis add yourself to the list of: those who helped the patterson, instead of the : total wanker advice, list. Sounds like you lived my life for me. Shame it didnt work out for you guys.
I think this kid is gonna be o.k.[/quote]
Glad it helped. Took a couple of days of reading these posts and realizing that at one time I had felt like you do now. Again - in hindsight I look back at my time spent with the whole family as a really wonderful, positive experience. Perspectives change when youâre not in the heat of the moment, and when you look back on everything years later you can get a little shock from that!
Sure, itâs a shame it didnât work out, but good timing is also part of any relationship, no?
The whole ânot working outâ part is another story all together, which Iâll probably spare you all. If youâre nice. 
Miaka - thanks!
amos - guanxi is much appreciated. Bartâs ass adds a certain flavor cynicism to your comments, but you have made my dream of having an avatar a reality!