There are very few humans whi can tick all the boxes for every one. Even the hippes cant deny bob marley was a cheating ass. Doesnt take away from the good.
Give an example of a person and try your bardest to search for no .flaws. Be a leader of a country and be damn sure you are somehow guilty of murder. It is very telling about our.maturity as a species.
Back.on point, we are all like dogs. Reward them for good behaviour, they start doing it.more often to get a treat. Punish idiocy, create a monster. Isnt this all pretty well studied and agreed on already?
When we deny basic biological normalities we will go around in pointless arguments (as per above) until extinction. Or infinity. Definition of retardation right there.
Youâve read some positive articles or videos about him also?
PBS, CNN, BBC so far for the in depth reporting, then generally on numerous articles its only about Kashoggi. Maybe I missed the positive articles and new series hi lighting all the great changes I listed.
you do know that those little freedoms he allowed to his people, like allowing women to drive cars, going to cinemas are just superficial excuses in order to maintain his familyâs power?
at the same time, civil rights activists and political opponents have become a specific target for this regime, khashogi being the most prominent one.
give the people a little, get a lot more from the people. thatâs what MBS is trying to do. like any dictatorship, he and his family is only interested in keeping their dynasty alive and make as much money as possible while at it. he doesnât care about sharia law or muslim traditions. itâs only one convenient way to suppress his people. he will change his mind just as fast as dan snyder changed his stance on the redskins name as soon as sponsors threated to jump off the wagon.
Of course its a dictatorship its been for over 100 yrs. Its still progress over the previous King and the one before that. Changes take time, Saudi Arabia is not going to become some Western Style Democracy over night. That doesnât take away from the fact that big progress is happening vs the previous dictators. How is Obama and Clintons Democracy working out for Lybia? How is Bushes Democracy working out for Iraq? These things need to develop over time, the governments are a reflection of their people. Not everyone is ready for a Western Democracy in 2020 or in 2003âŚIt has nothing to do with what I or you personally prefer to see.
I think the fallacy is your logic is that a country can make progress under a dictatorship. Because the goal of a dictator is to consolidate power, not move a country forward. Thatâs why I think this train went off the tracks in the station.
The fallacy of your argument is denying the fact that women rights is not progress because it happened under someone you hate. And that the only way forward is 100% Democracy now or nothing. There can be no steps towards becoming more Democratic its all now or nothing. Black and white. Youre either Hitler or Youre good. (Since you love categorizing everyone you hate as Hitler)
Meanwhile the Women of Saudi Arabia think its progress, but what do they know they only live there and are part of the culture.
Youre a Political Keyboard jockey from the West thinking you have superior intellect and judgement that you shit over the world because you know whats best for them today in 2020 and how to get it.
iâm a little bit weary of that argument. of course nothing happens over night.
but the same argument has been used for china about 20-30 years ago. âgive hong kong back to chinaâ,âbring china into the UNâ,âlet china participate in the world marketâ, âeventually they will open upââŚi havenât seen any signs of china opening up to the worldâŚquite the opposite, china has a large part of the world in its stranglehold.
So whats your solution to Saudi Arabia then?
Besides complaining that Women rights and more Freedoms arenât cutting it and getting rid of Sharia laws? Are the peopleâs day to day lives of China better off today than 30 years ago? Are enough people in China even ready do a Western Style Republic? Maybe, maybe not.
Some Bush and Obama/Clinton style War imposed Democracy against Dictators like Saddam and Gaddafi. CIA overthrow the Govt and drop some bombs for a good civil war? Then we spend another 20-30 years with 500,000 troops trying to keep everyone from killing each other and force them to see our Western Republic is superior for their culture in 2020 because we know whats best for them today as we feel their people dont have the right to evolve and figure it out on their own time.
nothing is easy in the middle east. i really wouldnât know what to do. trying some carrot and stick approach probably with heavy emphasis on not killy killy regime opponents. and if you do, no more delicious US fast food for you and no more F-35 or F-50 or whatever for your incompetent military anymore.
I vaguely recall about half of those from the news (from like two or three years ago), but a few made my bandana twitch.
Allowing foreign entertainment into country
Theyâve had foreign entertainment (heavily censored of course) since, what, forever? They have more now, sure, but itâs not like they just invented sliced bread.
Kicking ISIS out of Saudi Arbia
Itâs beyond the scope of this thread, but (1) they were âkicked outâ of basically every country everywhere, and (2) the official policy of opposing them started before MBS came to (de facto) power.
Arresting princes that funded ISIS
Also beyond the scope here, but (1) the population of that family is measured in 5-digit numbers, (2) there were hundreds rounded up in the famous âRitz purgeâ, and (3) while I have no trouble believing some of them were involved directly or indirectly in the terrorist funding you speak of, there was a lot more going on than just that.
Removing Fundamentalist Wahabbist Clerics from power
Okay, itâs debatable whether âFundamentalist Wahhabistâ and just plain Wahhabist are the same thing or not, but I think youâre drawing the wrong conclusion, namelyâŚ
Removing Wahabbi Islamic dogma from ruling the country
âŚitâs a secular state now? Separation of mosque and state has been realized?
Legalizing alcohol
Yeah, about thatâŚ
Tldr: The so-called legalization was fake news, which you fell for and posted at least twice. Please make some kind of effort.
Or were you referring to this sort of thing?
Tldr: some peoiple like to spend a lot of money on mocktails.
Closing down Secret religious police
They are on a leash now, but they are not shut down. They still patrol the streets looking for, say, people who consume alcohol, but now instead of arresting you themselves, theyâll call the normal cops and have them arrest you.
Getting rid of Sharia law
So letting women drive etc. is the bar for that now? And all the westerners who get hysterical about âSharia is coming! Sharia is coming!â because of women choosing to wear veils in public or stuff like this can calm down?
Seriously, show us an edict from the King (who btw is not MBS) abolishing sharia, and I will eat my laptop.
Allowing Tourists into SA with 1st visitor visa ever
MBS certainly is pro-tourism, but tourist visas started before his (de facto) tenure.
Closing down Execution Square.
And he knows not every niche market is worth courting!
IncidentallyâŚ
True, very true. Maybe even truer than you think.
You really do sound like Mark Ndesandjo talking about China ~10 years ago, if he were a Manichean echo-chamber keyboard warrior.
Whatâs the solution to anything? Adopt an if youâre not with us youâre against us attitude to every damn thing in the world? Thatâs exactly the type of short-sighted thinking that you claim, over and over, to be against. Yet here we are, being lectured by you that we must either praise MBS or praise terrorism, oppression of women, etc. etc.
Anyways Iâm sure the people in Saudi Arabia enjoy the freedoms even thought its trite to you. And yes I wish they had more, but its almost as if its all or nothing for you and Mups.
Probably some good intentions there, but maybe look a little more closely - maybe not so fast there - because of that claim concerning Sharia, or Islamic, law. âMajorly curtailedââŚ? Sharia law goes hand in hand with the Islam faith. The KSA maintains and enjoys its status in the region, and substantive reasons for that include the fact that the KSA has 2 of the 3 holiest sites in Islam. Mitigating or compromising Sharia/Islamic law in any way cannot be done without mitigating or compromising Islam. Thatâd be difficult.
That reads as if you criticize MBS, you are an anti-feminist, pro-terrorist funadmentalist, i.e. thereâs no middle ground, you canât criticize a reformist or else youâre anti-reform, period.
Btw, if you really donât know why he wrote what he wrote, youâre free to go and read it. Itâs pretty damn easy.
That reads as if you report on a horrific murder by a roving death squad without in the same article praising the alleged mastermind of the roving death squad for his remarkable perestroika campaign, you must be anti-feminist etc. etc. oh and part of a vast international MSM conspiracy, to boot.
Dude, this is ridiculous. You can see kind, welcoming, down to earth people from all. Over. The. Fricking. Planet.
Remember back in the 90âs when people spoke excitedly of the â500 channelsâ that would soon be available on the âInformation Superhighwayâ? Well news flash â it happened! And then some! Thereâs more information out there than a human being has time to consume, let alone process, in a single lifetime. But you need to make an effort. If your preferred search engine doesnât give you the information you seek, try a different search engine.
You want documentaries? Freckinâ youtube will give you documentaries. Type in âreform in Saudi Arabiaâ. You can adjust search results to filter out the shorter videos. Most of them will be less than 60m, but thatâs life.
Well no, theyâre not unprecedented. Some of the reforms are actually a matter of undoing previous reforms (as Jamal Khashoggi tried to tell you but couldnât because you refused to read the WaPo because itâs âMSMâ), but more importantly, heâs seen the same story in other countries and is following those examples, with Saudi characteristicsas one might say.
You seem angered by anything negative.
That is exactly what I mean when I say youâre doing what you claim not to be doing. No-one here is saying women shouldnât drive. Youâre the one saying itâs an either-or, despite your adamant claims to the contrary.
Who said I had one? Your planet is doomed anyway.
But that doom will take a long time, as you hoomans measure things, so in the meantime I would suggest (1) stop reading/watching/listening to whatever fake news sources youâve gotten yourself addicted to, (2) try some serious news and learn to recognize and live with the biases (easier than you think, if you can be bothered to exercise your brain muscle), (3) try to treat all countries and leaders fairly instead of letting some off easy because of some goddamn travel vlog you watched that made you think âoh wow this is coolâ, and (4) once youâve had some time to figure things out, maybe youâll manage to vote for the candidates most likely to bring about world peace.
As for international travel (the forum weâre supposedly in right now), Iâve been to some colorful places myself and am not quick to campaign for absolute boycotts, but my advice to you, or anyone, would include (1) donât trust anyone who says you can drink (real) alcohol legally in a country famous for torturing people who drink (real) alcohol, and (2) when you hear a claim like that, spend at least 5 seconds fact checking it.
ETA: I didnât watch the video in the OP, so I donât know if it actually includes the legal alcohol claim. But if you didnât get the claim from there, where did you get it from?
Iâd counter by saying when you murder people for exercising freedom of speech, whatever rights you pretend to afford your citizens will be taken away whenever itâs convenient.
Under a dictator like MBS they are not permanent rights, more like rights you will hold onto as long as you have my back.
Letâs face itâŚSaudi Arabia wonât ever evolve into another western democratic country but their present liberalisation is to be praised in the 21st century. Unlike the PRC the facade is 21st but reality only 19th.
Actually Iâm truly looking forward to seeing Mecca and Medina when I visit.
Khashoggiâs murderers have had the death penalty dropped. If they keep quiet theyâll be pardoned in a couple of years with good jobs and a hefty under-the-table payout.
do you actually read, man?
or praise terrorism, oppression of women, etc. etc.
