I have a more positive outlook, based on the growing success of CNR programs in other Asian countries and around the world.
I also believe that most of the perceived obstacles you mention can be overcome with the right sell. Optimism works wonders; pessimism will do nothing, of course.
If India can halt a hundred years of killing and promote and perform CNR programs successfully, then so can we. Let’s not say “We can’t”, but instead say “How can we?” 
Great. Based on the realities outlined above, “how can we”? Because those realities are not going to go away, optimistic or pessimistic.
Perhaps this is a good time to mention that CNR is already taking off in Taiwan, with the full support of the government and the majority of the community. Mostly cats right now, but dogs too. We use government money to CNR the dogs at BaiShaWan. 
CNR seems to be a really good program, but I don’t want to wait 6 years, I don’t want to spend my money to fix a problem that is perpetuated by others, and even then CNR seems to be a half-measure in that it wants to create stable populations of neutered, non-aggressive stray dogs in communities where I’d prefer to see none. Seriously, I think a bb gun to zap aggressive dogs is the humane, quick-fix solution I’m looking for. Nobody dies, nobody gets injured (a stinging pellet to the flanks doesn’t consitute an injury in my books - I’ve been on the receiving end of one myself, and it ain’t pleasant, but it’s not exactly fatal.) and I won’t have to worry about dogs biting me or Gustav. I doubt I’ll be able to stop their infernal barking, but this is probably the closest thing to a solution that is satisfactory to both sides. Now - does anyone know where I can get armed?
If you’re going to do that, arm all your neighbours too, because that dog is about to become a lot more aggressive.
Where is everyone getting this idea that CNR is about creating stable populations? (I take it you mean stable as in numbers, right?)
[quote=“Maoman”]CNR seems to be a really good program, but I don’t want to wait 6 years, I don’t want to spend my money to fix a problem that is perpetuated by others, and even then CNR seems to be a half-measure in that it wants to create stable populations of neutered, non-aggressive stray dogs in communities where I’d prefer to see none. Seriously, I think a bb gun to zap aggressive dogs is the humane, quick-fix solution I’m looking for. Nobody dies, nobody gets injured (a stinging pellet to the flanks doesn’t consitute an injury in my books - I’ve been on the receiving end of one myself, and it ain’t pleasant, but it’s not exactly fatal.) and I won’t have to worry about dogs biting me or Gustav. I doubt I’ll be able to stop their infernal barking, but this is probably the closest thing to a solution that is satisfactory to both sides. Now - does anyone know where I can get armed?[/quote]Just make sure you aim well. If you miss you could take an eye out with a BB gun, and from there infection can set in and kill a dog in a horrible way. Just so you know…
You can get BB guns just about anywhere, but the powerful ones that require compressed Co2 cartridges is probably what you’re after. The cheap ones sold everywhere will only be effective within a 20 feet range at best. That will not work for you, if there are many dogs coming your way, considering you need to reload for every hit. Semi automatic Co2 bb guns are available, though, but the pellets will burrow into your skin at close range. But whatever, go ahead and shoot the dogs. The good thing is, after you shoot them a few times, they’ll recognize you and they will leave you alone. Problem is, they’ll be even more aggressive to everyone else. :bravo:
They need to stay away from getting personal, remove any sarcasm which can be easily misread, drop the rolling eyes emoticons, and be less patronizing. They should ignore or politely respond to snide comments. Sean and Bob are not wankers killing time on the net, they are in charge of organisations so - in the pet and animal forum anyway - i think they need to be more diplomatic.
I don’t really have a problem with the CNR method suggested on this thread, just the way its proponents post. I feel it is counterproductive.
Yes, if they are self righteous or patronising.[/quote]
Well, Almas John, I think you make sense. But what we are dealing with here is people willing to shoot dogs with bb guns instead of looking at this issue logically, with patience and compassion. My experience is that long standing problems can not be solved over night. Man, it’s difficult not to just tell some people to go to hell. But still, you are right. I should ignore such posts or at best reply politely, and without sarcasm. It’s not easy… trapjaw is spot on to say that we are dealing with far more criticism around here. It’s like we are the under dog or something similar. 
Thanks for the polite, honest, and valuable feedback. And thanks to trapjaw for the support. It’s appreciated more than you know.
bobepine wrote: [quote]But what we are dealing with here is people willing to shoot dogs with bb guns instead of looking at this issue logically, with patience and compassion. [/quote]
I’m not so sure. We are dealing with people who POST about wanting to do stuff like shoot aggressive strays, but - as far as I know - no forumosans are actually doing that.
I’m not so sure. We are dealing with people who POST about wanting to do stuff like shoot aggressive strays, but - as far as I know - no forumosans are actually doing that.[/quote]Then if that’s the case, Maoman is trolling. Did he not ask where he can get his hands on a bb gun to shoot strays? If he doesn’t actually mean to do just that, then he’s trolling. Hard not to be sarcastic either way, don’t you think?
Hell no, I’m not trolling. I’ll shoot any dog with a plastic pellet if I think they might take a chunk out of me or Gustav. Consider it a blessing that all they get is a pellet to the rump. I believe calling the dogcatchers would probably end less well for them. And if I truly believed that they might attack me, I’d probably chuck a rock at them, which could be considerably more lethal, and a lot harder to aim with any kind of precision. (I throw like a girl) 
Are there examples where CNR has not only reduced but eliminated the stray dog situation? I looked through the links, but all I could see was mention of reduction. That’s a start, but only a start. If it ends there, it’s a half-measure, in my books.
It’s a relatively new concept. It drastically reduces populations, and is especially effective at reducing bites by stray animals. Common sense tells you it must eventually eradicate the population, if only it weren’t for new ones being dumped (you could kill every dog on the island, but hundreds are dumped every week). CNR alone will not eradicate strays (unless in a completely controlled environment).
But what we are dealing with here is people willing to shoot dogs with bb guns instead of looking at this issue logically, with patience and compassion. My experience is that long standing problems can not be solved over night. [/quote]
Asking someone to wait six years for a method to work (assuming it does) is a bit much in the “patience” department, when you’re talking about a situation that places his family members in jeopardy on a nearly daily basis. If you think considering their safety over the comfort of a few dogs with momentary stinging to the flanks is “impatient” or “uncompassionate”, so be it. I’m with Maoman on this one.
It’s a relatively new concept. It drastically reduces populations, and is especially effective at reducing bites by stray animals. Common sense tells you it must eventually eradicate the population, if only it weren’t for new ones being dumped (you could kill every dog on the island, but hundreds are dumped every week). CNR alone will not eradicate strays (unless in a completely controlled environment).[/quote]
OK, so we ARE talking about sustaining and controlling local populations?
Actually, I think the pain stimulus idea (plastic bb or similar) might be the best option. I know it’s hard for some among us to stomach, but it’ll likely put a little fear in the hearts of dogs who are displaying dominant, aggressive and antisocial behaviour toward humans. It might just work and the dogs won’t have to be destroyed. Inflicting a little pain and suffering to alter the dogs’ behaviour so as to avoid the greater pain of capture and death seems like a good trade off to me. Cut off the toe to save the body.
I know that the problems of strays and abandoned domestic animals are broader issues that require an intelligent response to get at the root causes and affect real positive change, but let’s not lose sight of the needs of particular individuals who just want to be able to use a public space now controlled by aggressive, feril dogs put there by someone else. Yes, the greater problems need to be dealt with collectively, but sometimes the band-aid sollutions are best/ most realistic in individual cases where a sollution is needed faster.
Please see my previous responses to this point.
I’m assuming you prefer to use a method that has been proven ineffective, as reported in studies by the World Health Organization and the World Society for the Protection of Animals?
Please see my previous responses to this point.
I’m assuming you prefer to use a method that has been proven ineffective, as reported in studies by the World Health Organization and the World Society for the Protection of Animals?[/quote]
Sean, you have the patience of a saint.
[quote=“Stimpy”]Actually, I think the pain stimulus idea (plastic bb or similar) might be the best option. I know it’s hard for some among us to stomach, but it’ll likely put a little fear in the hearts of dogs who are displaying dominant, aggressive and antisocial behaviour toward humans. It might just work and the dogs won’t have to be destroyed. Inflicting a little pain and suffering to alter the dogs’ behaviour so as to avoid the greater pain of capture and death seems like a good trade off to me. Cut off the toe to save the body.
I know that the problems of strays and abandoned domestic animals are broader issues that require an intelligent response to get at the root causes and affect real positive change, but let’s not lose sight of the needs of particular individuals who just want to be able to use a public space now controlled by aggressive, feril dogs put there by someone else. Yes, the greater problems need to be dealt with collectively, but sometimes the band-aid sollutions are best/ most realistic in individual cases where a sollution is needed faster.[/quote]
From what I have been experiencing for myself amongst a pack of (currently) 60 dogs, pain is unnecessary as a teacher, and actually a pretty poor one at that anyway. Dogs understand body language / posturing / confidence levels far better than people realise, and these are the characteristics that are abundant in a leader among dogs. We have one dog in our care who was ‘taught’ not to bark through beatings and having his mouth taped shut. He still barked. We rid him of that habit by behaving the right way around him. No sympathy, no smacking, no shouting - just confident posturing and challenging, then rewarding for good behaviour. Ask any dog behaviourist; physical punishment / pain is not an effective teaching tool for dogs and in fact is far more likely to produce worse behaviours.
Don’t make me come smack you to prove my point.
Stray dog, your ideas are great in theory, but could prove ineffective in reality (or at very least impractical and time consuming to extremes). I agree posturing works in most cases. It may be somewhat less effective against a whole group of dogs who aren’t afraid of you and are displaying territorial aggression; forget about them being ready to accept you as the alpha dog leader in their pack.
Your point about dog behaviourists, I suspect, deals with training of pets and not dealings with semiwild, feral strays who you just want to keep away from you and your family. In the latter case, you aren’t concerned with ideal teaching/training methods or how the use of aversion/pain stimulus will affect the rest of the dog’s personality. You just want something that will condition the dogs to stay away from you and your family when you pass through that area from time to time.
I think in Maoman’s case, it has been made clear that he has neither the time nor the inclination to engage these dogs on any other level than “keep away!” I can’t see him doing a dog whisperer routine and handing out doggie treats in this matter. Can you? I see two outcomes as most probable here: either he can keep the dogs out with minimal effort through application of a little aversion therapy (pain as consequence for undesirable behaviour) or he calls the dog catcher. I like option A better.
Gustav’s a wimp. He doesn’t know how to posture. Sometimes he lies down and delicately crosses his front paws. He thinks the whole world is a lick-fest. I don’t think your advice applies to people with pets walking amongst feral dogs.
Well, I apply these ‘theories’ every day. Bear in mind that the majority of dogs at our place were once ‘problem dogs’. We have two feral dogs here, and both are now trained to follow instructions, though they still fear people, but we never used pain as a tool - it would never have worked. This is not obedience training; it’s completely different. It is establishing heirarchy and setting boundaries and limitations.
Right now, the dogs haven’t bitten anybody. If you raise the level of excitement/aggression, I think that will soon change. When you are approached by stray dogs, there are many weapons you can use, and none of them are projectiles.
[quote=“Maoman”]
When I brought Gustav along one time, they went apeshit, and I had to throw rocks at them to keep them away. There are about 10 or so dogs, none of them big enough to cause any damage individually (indeed, if they were alone, I believe they’d just run away), but as a pack, I’m sure they would make some nasty bites if they thought they could get away with it.[/quote]
What was the trigger here? Gustav. If you study dog behaviour a little more, you will learn that there are ways to govern your won dogs body language and posturing to prevent stray packs seeing him as a threat, and use your own to diffuse the situation. If you get physical with dogs when they are initiating the heirarchy rituals, you will set them off into a real fight. That is the danger.
Read the part in bold; the answer is there for all to see.
Bear in mind, I have to introduce strange dogs to the packs here all the time, and the way it is done will dictate whether there is any blood shed. Understand what the strays are doing, then you can better combat the problem. They are posturing; you should do the same. You raise the level of aggression, and you create the more serious scenario.
Letting the dogs know to keep away is absolutely the right thing to do; raising the excitement level is not. There are more options than the two you mention.
Two types of dogs trigger aggression: overly assertive ones, and weak ones.