Fine, the law is suspect. I don’t disagree with that. There’s a ton of improvement possible, and I look forward to seeing it some day.
What the law is not is a weapon for destroying the pluralistic, free-speaking society that Hong Kong is today.
[quote=“cctang”]Fine, the law is suspect. I don’t disagree with that. There’s a ton of improvement possible, and I look forward to seeing it some day.
What the law is not is a weapon for destroying the pluralistic, free-speaking society that Hong Kong is today.[/quote]
Yeah for Hong Kong. :yay: Too bad for the other 1.2 billion people in China who are denied the right to free speech, free assembly, free practice of religion, free access to information, due process of law, etc. by the CCP. Too bad for the thousands who have fallen victim to the persecution of Falun Gong in China. At least Hong Kong is a safe, right? Or is it… 
http://www.fofg.org/voices/voices_story.php?doc_id=345
Because no matter how weird or cult like FLG members behave, we know they are just peace loving people…that hate jews, foreigners, homosexuals, children of mixed race, and most medical science.
If China cannot tolerate a whole bunch of Chinese KKK, how can one claim progress has been made in society.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]Because no matter how weird or cult like FLG members behave, we know they are just peace loving people…that hate Jews, foreigners, homosexuals, children of mixed race, and most medical science.
If China cannot tolerate a whole bunch of Chinese KKK, how can one claim progress has been made in society.[/quote]
China doesn’t tolerate Christians either, and under your words, you probably consider it a good thing. You probably think because the bible specifically says to not tolerate homosexuals, mixed races, even the Jews, and even says that should your unruly child be totally out of control, to stone the boy to death. It even details how to sell your daughter to slavery.
Heck there are ugly sides even to the Koran.
Since you consider the Falun Gong to be like the KKK (although the Falun Gong didn’t go around lynching anybody), then I finally understand why you support a government that has killed more civilians than the Nazi’s.
You have zero sense of comparison, however great to however little.
So yes, unlike many of these religious, let the Chinese government ACTIVELY partake in punishing these individuals simply for their belief. But doesn’t that make the Chinese Government even worse than those they prosecute?
[quote=“ac_dropout”]Because no matter how weird or cult like FLG members behave, we know they are just peace loving people…that hate Jews, foreigners, homosexuals, children of mixed race, and most medical science.
If China cannot tolerate a whole bunch of Chinese KKK, how can one claim progress has been made in society.[/quote]
Wow, having read Zhuan Falun and knowing many practiioners, I’m not even going to being on how wrong everything you just said is. The reason your comparison is flawed here and your argument moot, is because Falun Gong is not a hate group like the Klan. Falun Gong, though some of Li Hongzhi’s teachings are agaisnt certain ways of life, like homosexuality, the crux of the spiritual faith is truth, compassion, and tolerance. Falun Gong practitioners do not hate, they do not attack or fight back, they do not light themselves on fire like the CCP would have you beleive, and they are not, nor ever have been, a threat to China. However, even if I were to accept your flawed view of the group, you can not justify that the arresting, beating, sexually assult, rape, torture, live havesting of organs, internment in forced labor/concentration camps, and killing of Falun Gong practitioners by the police and other CCP officials that has been taking place since 1999 is right and not a crime against all of huminity. Oh, and back to the original issue here, in a free society like the US, UK, and, as you claim, Hong Kong groups like the Klan and even Nazis are allowed to organize, meet, spread their hate, parade in the streets, print newspapers with their message, speak out against the government, etc. without the fear of being arrested and prsecuted, let alone beaten raped or even killed.
It is debatable how much freedom hate groups are allowed to have in society. Not every idea is entitled to self promotion in a civilized society.
If you a child of mix marriage or a homosexual, you will be getting much hate from FLG.
I’ve known many racist that are quite kind and civilized, but they harbor ideas that are destructive to society, thus they need to be re-educated or have their civil rights suspended. That maybe perceived to be harsh by Western standards, but that is how you create a harmonious society.
If FLG wish to corrupt and weaken Western society with their flawed idea, I’m sure many Chinese nationalist are happy they are allow to practice in the West.
I suggest you stop talking about things you know nothing about. You obviously know nothing of the teachings of Falun Gong or any practitioners. You are simply regurgitating the lies that the CCP and other opponents of Falun Gong would have you believe. Many practitioners, my wife included, are married to people of a different “race” and have children. Are you suggesting that my wife hates our daughter? FG practitioners do not hate. The very emotion is contrary to the teachings of Li Hongzhi. Stick to promoting the CCP, it’s what you’re good at.
Oh, so that’s jwbrunken’s horse in this race. His wife’s FLG. Interesting.
I think it might be interesting to you that I don’t really disagree with the negative image of China you’re describing here. China is not a “free country”. The Falun Gong, more due to its activist/missionary organization than its superstitious and bizarre teachings, are oppressed in China (although we’ll disagree as to the substance of this ‘oppression’). The same is true to a certain degree of Christian organizations with a political taint (not “Christians” at large), organized democracy activists, etc, etc.
But to this I say… so what? I see from your little icon that you’re American. Do you understand that the United States is also, in its own way, not “free”? Is it legal for you to have more than one wife? As an adult, can you visit prostitutes or smoke marijuana? Can you choose to not send your children to schools? Can you choose to not pay your federal tax obligations? Can you choose to drive as fast as you can on the freeways? Can you marry a man?
Those freedoms, by the way, are all available in other nations. I appreciate what you’re trying to do for the Chinese people, jwbrunken… when’re you going to turn around and help your own, oppressed countrymen?
(There’s a message here beyond pointing out the ‘evils’ of the United States, by the way… let’s hope you glimpsed it.)
FLG attitude toward children of mixed race is well know. Here is a more neutral site of Christians with their take.
Since by some account “Christians” are persecuted by the PRC as well.
[quote]http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/104/33.0.html
According to an extensive report published by the Christian Research Institute (CRI), followers consider Zhuan Falun to be a sacred text. An advertisement for the book said, “No matter how many books of scriptures are published, all are materials of assistance to Zhuan Falun. It is only Zhuan Falun that is genuinely guiding cultivation.”…
The CRI said Li also teaches that different races have individual “biospheres” that should not be mixed. Children of mixed-race are defective and heaven itself is segregated, he says.[/quote]
Of course Christians, evangelical ones especially, have their own aggenda to down play other faiths. Unless you feel Christians would break a 10 commandment, just to sling mud at another religon…
Maybe FLG has splintered into different sects, one for racial purity and another that accepts mixing, it is common knowledge Master Li doesn’t condone race mixing. But then again KKK uses the Bible to justified their strange racial heirarchy view of the world as well.
Perhaps FLG should take up the cause of Muslims being persecuted in the USA…I never heard of a religon being banned by 2 superpowers, let alone 1 aspiring superpower. But it would be a first for FLG.
Watch out everyone!!! AC Dropout thinks you’re too stupid to make decisions on your own! In fact, from now on, ask AC Dropout to approve of your ideas from now on, otherwise you will be hampering a civilized society!! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!
[quote=“ac_dropout”]
I’ve known many racist that are quite kind and civilized, but they harbor ideas that are destructive to society, thus they need to be re-educated or have their civil rights suspended.[/quote]
Although AC Dropout disapproves of a White man marrying a Chinese girl, enough to call that White guy racial slurs, he does not consider that racism! Its only racism if AC calls it racism, thus the other racists need to be reeducated, possibly through labor, like in a Gulag! Any racist’s civil rights should be suspended, except for AC Dropout of course (please forget that incident with the White guy who married a Chinese girl), and instead concentrate on the other racists.!
Thats right, a harmonious AC Dropout/CCP society! Due to the glorious CCP forward-thinking, only 60 million + Chinese Lives have been snuffed out early, think of the repurcussions! Without the CCP it would’ve been far worse, maybe 70 million dead. Oh right, AC Dropout supports the KMT! Well only 6-7 Million have been killed under the KMT! Think, without the KMT, maybe more would be dead!
What? You say thats not true? Off to the Gulag!!!
Agreed! Only AC Dropout knows whats right. Not you!
Shrimp,
I know you get worked up in these forums, but I really must ask, what’s your point?
Not so much interesting, but now I know at least you are human.
Maybe you don’t know, but all the activist activities conducted now and before by FG have been in regards to the persecution which begun in 1999. Even the alleged satellite hijackings were only to broadcast the “truth about the persecution and Falun Gong.” Before then, when there were about 100 million practitioners in mainland China including CCP soldiers, police, officals, doctors, etc, the only “demonstrations” done by practioners were excersise demos in parks as they do today. No different than a group doing Tai Chi. I’d love to disuss the “substance” of the persecution with you. Maybe in another thread if you like.
Funny, everything I’ve read says that it is the churches that don’t allow the CCP to control its organization, teachings, and clergy that are outlawed.
Well, maybe not so human afterall.
Yes, and I’m not allowed to yell “Fire!” in a crowded movie theater either. We are so repressed in that so-called land of the free 
. I hate to be the one to break this to you, but most everyone on the planet regards the right to practice your spiritual beliefs (as long as they do not conflict with the established norms and mores of the society) without fear of violent reprocussion from the government more than just a freedom but a basic human right. I see where youa re going with this, I really do, but your comparison here is moot. In the US, bastion of oppression as you say it is, and the rest of the major world powers (China aside of course) one cannot be legally arrested, beaten, sexually assulted, raped, tortured, and then put to death solely on the grounds of the religion you choose to practice.
[quote]hose freedoms, by the way, are all available in other nations. I appreciate what you’re trying to do for the Chinese people, jwbrunken… when’re you going to turn around and help your own, oppressed countrymen?
(There’s a message here beyond pointing out the ‘evils’ of the United States, by the way… let’s hope you glimpsed it.)[/quote]
Yeah, yeah got the message. Different countries, different ideas of freedom. However, there are certain universal human rights that are granted by all other nations in the “1st World”. I don’t need to rattle them all off, I’m sure. Furthermore, in my oppressed homeland of the US, if I have a problem with my curtailed freedoms I always have the right to say so and advocate for change all without having to worry about being arrested. Too bad in China, my wife couldn’t even practice her faith without risking death.
I am aware of what Li Hongzhi has said about mixed children. It is more along the lines of each race has its own god/religion and each god/religion only acts to save its own. There is a heaven for whites, blacks, asians, etc. What he doesn’t do is teach hate or anything of the kind, as someone here tried to liken FG to the KKK. I believe he teaches that mixed children can only be saved through practicing FG because it is to a “higher level” than all other spiritual practices.
No splintering that I know of, and though Li Hongzhi may not condone race mixing, he doesn’t feel any less compassion for mixed children or interracial couples (that would be contrary to the rest of his teachings.) He most certainly does not preach or advocate hate and violence like the KKK. Making this comparison is not only insulting to me as a friend of FG, but should also be to you as a display of your intelligence. I mean that in the most respectful of terms, of course.
Not really sure what your point is here. No one in the US has yet been arrested for attending service at a Mosque or praying to Allah. However thousands of FG practitioners have been arrested, beaten, sexually assulted, raped, tortured and killed for practicing their faith in China.
I think if one is aware of China’s history of homegrown cults that seeked political power, and foriegn missionaries that posed as spies in modern Chinese history. It should come as no surprise why China behaves the way it does towards FLG and unregistered religious groups in China.
I mean there was a time when one could bring a bottle drink aboard airlines headed towards the USA as well.
Within historical context it makes perfect sense.
No point dancing around the issue. FLG had political aspirations in the Mainland, thus it was banned.
So if FLG remained an internal kung fu school, with no political ambition or aggenda, it probably would have been left alone.
If FLG had political ambition in the West like they did in China, I’m sure they would have been banned in their new host country as well. You think the White House is going to put up with 10,000 FLG practioners with no permit to demostrate showing up at the front lawn condemning Iraq.
The USA literally kicked out a FLG supporter for heckling during Hu JingTao visit a few months ago.
I’ll give you the historical context arguement, but wanna provide something that backs up your assertion that FG had political aspirations prior to the persection in 1999 which warranted the level of persecution they are forced to endure today?
How about abusing freedom of speech to highjack online China forums into a rant about evil China and peace-loving FLG.
Feel free to hyperlink a bunch of FLG publications as proof to your assertions in your next post.
That isn’t true. The persecution in question didn’t initiate out of a sense of boredom amongst the CCP. We already knew some of the story before, and JZM’s recently published memoirs mention this in a little more detail.
Let me briefly summarize the history of the chain of events that led to the ‘persecution’:
- FLG gains tremendous popularity, as you said, in every segment of society.
- There are of course many who dislike FLG philosophies. A few notable scientists start publishing articles criticizing FLG superstitions. Many begin to argue FLG is dangerous to the health of practitioners.
- A few tens of thousands of FLG followers materialize, in a single day, around a newspaper publishing office. They insist that the newspaper publish an apology and retract an earlier column that harshly criticized FLG.
- A few weeks later, tens of thousands of FLG quietly surround Zhongnanhai and “exercise”. No explicit demand, but it’s obviously meant to intimidate.
- The CCP is absolutely shocked that this group has this level of organization, and further shocked that no one in the intelligence/public security forces had any idea this was happening.
- There’s concern that foreign forces (maybe folks who’s initials are L.T.H. and C.S.B.) could co-opt the organization to wreak havoc on the mainland.
This is the origin of the oppression. It’s not necessarily because the FLG beliefs are far more outrageous than Christian sects. It’s because the FLG is organized, period. In fact, I’d argue It’s organized in a way that few churches world-wide are.
When was the last time the Catholic Church, in order to influence public policy, called upon Catholics to congregate around any government office in any country? And even more notably, when was the last time that the Cathlic Church did so secretly…? Not through public papal announcement, but rather just by passing the message through local priests able to bring their congregations together, to a distant location, through word of mouth alone?
And let me ask you another question. Do you know what the Taiping Tianguo is?
Quite frankly, I don’t have a personal “problem” with FLG. I do find their beliefs to be laughable and idiotic, but I don’t have a problem with the idiocy of others. Nor do I believe that this idiocy should be dealt with violently. Now, I do care enough about my society that I believe their attempts to tweak the political discussion in their favor is dangerous… and frankly, I firmly oppose it the same way ShrimpCracker opposes marijuana smoking amongst Forumosa members.
[quote]
I hate to be the one to break this to you, but most everyone on the planet regards the right to practice your spiritual beliefs (as long as they do not conflict with the established norms and mores of the society) without fear of violent reprocussion from the government more than just a freedom but a basic human right. I see where youa re going with this, I really do, but your comparison here is moot. [/quote]
Why are we focusing on religion alone?
In Germany, I can be prosecuted for waving a Nazi flag and denying the existence of the Holocaust.
In the UK, I can be prosecuted for preaching to my followers about the Koran’s message on Jihad.
In the United States, I can be prosecuted if my spiritual beliefs lead me to believe that I should keep my children from seeing doctors, schools… while also marrying 3 (mutually consenting women). How is this similar to screaming “fire” in a crowded theater? What’s going on?
In Iraq, any guesses on what would happen if I was a Sunni Muslim that practiced my religious right by calling for Jihad while dancing with a weapon next to a US patrol?
You’re wrong, of course. In the US and the “rest of the major world powers”, you absolutely can be legally arrested.
What follows (beatings, sexual assults, rapes, torture, and death) is unfortunate, not allowed under Chinese law, and something I personally absolutely oppose. You might note that Iraqi prisoners of war have been subjected to all of the above. Is that also American foreign policy? Or is that a failure of American oversight?
China is lawless in numerous, numerous ways. The quality of the criminal justice system in China is a huge flaw. It has improved dramatically over the past 10 years, but it has far to go. As always, it’s a question if improving the level of education and safeguards in place. If local officials are stealing from their budgets and unable to keep parents from aborting female fetuses… are you surprised that they fail to treat criminal FLG followers with respect? If you were engaging yourself positively in the cause of constructively improving upon the Chinese criminal justice system, I’d applaud that.
If you’re serving out exaggerated rhetoric on behalf of a group that has an axe to grind… I’m not at all sympathetic.
I started to have a problem with the FLG when they hijacked a PRC TV signal from Taiwan.
I don’t think that Taiwan should be held hostage by FLG terrorist activities.
Unlike Hezbollah, I doubt these guys can even put up a fight for 1 day, if PRC decides to take military action to protect the sovereigty of their airwaves.
Um no silly, you’re BLATANTLY LYING again. Dr. Wang Wenyi is STILL RESIDING IN THE USA. The charges against her were cancelled and so Dr. Wang Wenyi is still residing in the USA.
She was allowed to heckle at Hu Jintao for over 2 and a half minutes on air before the secret service finally decided to escort her out, possibly the most lenient action ever taken at the White House.
Dr. Wang Wenyi en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenyi_Wang
Here is something our Chinese friends have not seen with Dr. Wang Wenyi and her outcry.
youtube.com/watch?v=X1HsmmJgLn0&search=falun
Hu Jintao suffered even more indignities.
zonaeuropa.com/20060422_2.htm
Oh yeah like the cult that gave Mao unsurpassed power in China, leading to great atrocities. Right.
Speaking of which, half of Mao’s exploits resulted in crazy numbers of victims:
hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE2.HTM
That woman has a FBI and Homeland security file about her now. She’ll never be allowed 100 feet near the White House anymore.