No official rate for the reason you mentioned but it is strongly suggested that 60~70% of inmates are Muslims.
It has to open your eyes a little on muslim being a serious issue.[/quote]
I already addressed this issue. 1% of French Muslims may be in prison which means a tiny minority are criminals as Chris wrote and you dismissed for reasons…because.
And these people are criminals not jihadists as there is no one suggesting they are in jail for terrorist activities. So what is your point?
Given the poor economic conditions of way too many immigrants in France, and the shitty job the government does in integration then yeah, I am not surprised that they are over-represented in the criminal justice system. But you are making a complete bullshit leap of logic that because Muslims are over-represented that this must mean that they are also an existential threat to France. There doesn’t appear to be any link between prisoners being Muslim and in being jail; however them being poor and in jail is strongly correlated.
It’s shocking how hard you are trying to excuse them… It’s like self flagellation…
The Muslim population in france is well over 10% when they were almost none few decades ago… And having close to 70% of the total inmate of that same country being muslim isn’t worth rising questions?!?
[quote=“Markova”]It’s shocking how hard you are trying to excuse them… It’s like self flagellation…
The Muslim population in france is well over 10% when they were almost none few decades ago… And having close to 70% of the total inmate of that same country being muslim isn’t worth rising questions?!?
Muslims are a major issue in France.[/quote]
My posting history is not filled with apologies for terrorists. And I live in a Muslim country fast falling into a fundamentalism I find abhorent. Try again.
As for the topic at hand, you are making it seem as if the fact that Muslims are more likely to commit crimes in France is somehow a threat to the very fabric of French society, its ability to survive into the future as a liberal democracy, and also that the criminal Muslim is somehow also linked to real terrorists. It’s a strained stupid argument. What has ordinary crime got to do with terrorism?
Black Americans are over-represented in the US prison population but this does not correlate to an increased risk of black terrorist activity.
That 50-70% of prisoners are Muslims suggests that yes there is a problem. One of integration, education and economic opportunity. Terrorism doesn’t come into play except in secondary ways such as the possibility of Muslims becoming radicalized within the prison system.
I had a feeling this thread would degrade from condemnation of terrorists (many of whom are Muslims, but many of whom are not) to a denigration of all Muslims.
The US, Britain, Spain, Denmark, and now France have all experienced serious instances of Muslim terrorism in the past 14 years. Canada and many other nations have thwarted serious Islamist plots. Obviously no one here is suggesting that all Muslims are terrorists, but the terrorists in question were all Muslims. Of course there have been instances of non-Muslim terrorism (Christian terrorists bombing abortion clinics, Jewish terrorists opening fire in mosques), but usually when there’s an act of terrorism in the name of religion it’s in the name of Islam. I don’t think it’s fair to paint anybody who questions the wisdom of Muslim immigration to the West as a racist and xenophobe. Knee-jerk liberalism isn’t any more informative than right-wing alarmism.
I always find it curious when people blame Western governments for “failing” to integrate Muslims. Particularly in Europe, Western governments have dedicated programs to integrating immigrants, including free language and culture courses, intercultural events, etc. I can’t say I remember reading about Tibetan Buddhists blowing up any trains in Madrid, or Indian Jains shooting cartoonists. Whenever this shit happens, it is damn near always Muslims doing the killing. It’s not bigoted to say so. It’s just stating facts.
“This horrific murder was not a pious protest against the defamation of a religious icon. It was an attempt to provoke European society into pogroms against French Muslims, at which point al-Qaeda recruitment would suddenly exhibit some successes instead of faltering in the face of lively Beur youth culture (French Arabs playfully call themselves by this anagram). Ironically, there are reports that one of the two policemen they killed was a Muslim.”
Yeah, thanks to some posters who think emotions are the same as reasons. I’m not surprised to read “knee jerk” simplistic and unreasoned comments from people who make comments of similarly low quality in other threads. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but that does not make all opinions equally useful.
This article is worth reading and carefully thinking about.
If would also help if some people here on Forumosa would learn to stop being the tail that tries to wag the dog. [/quote]
Can’t you see that the main issue is islam? It’s so simple
Take taiwan or Japan and compare it to Europe. What do they not have and makes their countries a lot more peaceful?
I read an article about a street demonstration of chinese immigrants in Paris. They were asking for more security and police. When asked by reporters who were they afraid of, their replies was pretty direct, they were tired of Arabs and blacks attacking them… Are you going to call those chinese racists or simple minded?
Chinese have a long culture of immigration and did you ever hear about them causing a security threat to their host countries? Does their kids born in those foreign shores burn cars on new year eve? Are they famous for living off social welfare or for working their ass off? Do they love victimizing themselves by creating dozens of anti racism associations paid with the public taxes?!
Hopefully the radicalisation of Islam will convince many of the moderates to renounce their religion and turn atheist or agnostic.
But that’s a slim hope. Ain’t gonna happen.
And the soft Europeans will end up overwhelmed by the radical fringe of a culture they opened their arms to. Europe has taken 600 years to recover from the last Muslim invasion, only to see the clock turned right back.
The Chinese may be very strong in their cultural identity as well, and a large majority of the migrants from modern China (not HK) remain totally pro-PRC and continue the propaganda from their homeland, but as pointed out above, at least they don’t blow shit up and kill people for it.
I don’t think Europeans are that soft on immigrants, we have a long history in that regard.
personally I think it would have been better if less Muslim immigrants had arrived in Europe given their reluctance to integrate to European ways.
Now the Syrian war is throwing a massive wave of refugees ashore in the region, it’s a difficult situation to deal with all round. Countries like Italy are getting swamped and they have enough problems already!
The politically correct derp is strong in this thread. Along with the rhetorical abuse of statistics by people who don’t understand how probability works, and don’t want to.
If everything’s a police and intelligence issue, then what’s needed is a police/surveillance state. I’m not too eager to embrace that mentality.
From the sound of things, Europe isn’t all on board with that mentality either. Events like these shake up people’s mindsets. They start to think outside the box – or at least feel outside the box. When the dust settles, we’ll see what we’ve got. But angrily asserting the old shibboleths won’t help preserve them. It will only make the mindguards look reactionary and wilfully stupid.
[quote=“rowland”]The politically correct derp is strong in this thread. Along with the rhetorical abuse of statistics by people who don’t understand how probability works, and don’t want to.
If everything’s a police and intelligence issue, then what’s needed is a police/surveillance state. I’m not too eager to embrace that mentality.[/quote]
None of this makes the slightest bit of sense. How about some specifics.
Now, if only they can go along to the logical next step and say… “We’ve got to do a better job policing our own community.”
It would also be nice if they had some feeling for the victims. Maybe they do, and you’re guessing wrong at their mentality. I’d like to think they’re less self-absorbed and heartless than the attitude you attribute to them here.
I’ve tutored refugees from war-torn countries. Most of them were Muslim. Boy, they’ve got some tales to tell. But you learn the most by observing how they think and feel.
The women are traumatized and helpless. They seem to see college courses as psychotherapy. The men are… I don’t know where they are, exactly. They’re not coming in for schooling, I know that much. Having grown up in a dysfunctional subculure myself, I know how to interpret these signs. Their society is a mess, and moving to a different country en masse doesn’t fix what’s broken inside them. It may give them an opportunity to heal, but it doesn’t magically fix them.
Their mentality is all dominance and submission. They simply can’t relate to other human beings on an equal basis. They don’t know how. Also, they’re rather emotionally volatile.
My heart goes out to war refugees, but we have to be realistic. No amount of hugs and tolerance is going to sort out the bad software in their heads. They bring their problems with them. What they need is a culture transplant. Wipe the hard drive and install a new operating system.
i think secretly many moderate muslims don’t want to police the radical elements out of their community, because they actually also want the imposition of sharia law and an Islamic state.
Until that happens, courtesy of the radical element, they’re quite happy to sit on the sidelines and watch, saying “Ooh, it’s not me, don’t include me with those radical rat bags.”
But then once the radicals get their way and Europe gets ‘talibanised’, they won’t be quite so happy. Just look at the fate of moderate muslims as well as infidels and atheists in IS over the last six months, for example. Or those moderates who don’t mind a bit of music and dancing, like Sufis and so on.
[quote=“rowland”]I’ve tutored refugees from war-torn countries. Most of them were Muslim. Boy, they’ve got some tales to tell. But you learn the most by observing how they think and feel.
The women are traumatized and helpless. They seem to see college courses as psychotherapy. The men are… I don’t know where they are, exactly. They’re not coming in for schooling, I know that much. Having grown up in a dysfunctional subculure myself, I know how to interpret these signs. Their society is a mess, and moving to a different country en masse doesn’t fix what’s broken inside them. It may give them an opportunity to heal, but it doesn’t magically fix them.
Their mentality is all dominance and submission. They simply can’t relate to other human beings on an equal basis. They don’t know how. Also, they’re rather emotionally volatile.
My heart goes out to war refugees, but we have to be realistic. No amount of hugs and tolerance is going to sort out the bad software in their heads. They bring their problems with them. What they need is a culture transplant. Wipe the hard drive and install a new operating system.[/quote]
Awesome. First a totally unsubstantiated and unargued charge of ‘the rhetorical abuse of statistics’, followed by confidently damning assertions about the society and psychology of refugee Muslims. Confident assertions based on a data point of exactly one individual and their ‘observations’ on how these pesky Muslims ‘think and feel’. And from the totally anecdotal data point that is one guys ‘observation’ of a likely small number of refugee Muslims we are supposed to extrapolate out to all Muslims? You really know how to use those stats eh Rowland?
And, anyway, what does any of this have to do with a discussion about the nature and import of the attack on Charlie Hebdo? It’s little more than vague and completely unconvincing hand-waving about (refugee) ‘Muslims’ and their supposedly damaged culture/s and psyches.
A white man just bombed an NAACP headquarters in Colorado. Ergo, by the same logic used by the right, making all Muslims culpable for the actions of a tiny few, whiteness is to blame, and we must stop white people from immigrating into our countries.
I don’t think Europe has done a great job on integration. Compared with places such as Dearborn, Michigan, or LA, and many other parts of the US, where Arab, Persian and Asian populations have achieved great success and contributed significantly to their communities, I think European countries have often attracted less dynamic immigrants than the US? Why? I would say a less welcoming political culture. The French political class remains for the most part Caucasian and stuck on a very secular model from the French revolution days (which doesn’t take into account diversity). In recent times only Sarkozy has had a non-French background (Hungarian).
I also don’t think there is nearly as much political participation amongst newcomers to France. I think there is a lot more nativism of the Le Pen variety in France which is a strange combination of left wing economic protectionism and old school conservative isolationism that appeals to quite ignorant people. I also don’t think the political class has done a good job on promoting the benefits of immigration. I believe that open immigration is very good for business because it provides new and often cheaper labor pools, especially in countries such as France where the continental system makes it hard to fire and hire employees with lots of seniority. I think anyone with centre-right political sympathies should think along the same lines as I do. I also think that open immigration provides much-needed workers and contributors in countries with generous social safety nets, low birth rates, and entitled youth that may think some types of work are beneath them. Without them, the services economy would not run as smoothly. I totally support free speech and abhor this extremism and have always thought that more money should be spent on surveillance mechanisms and policing to combat such threats. But I don’t think we can completely tie extremism to one religion. There is extremism in every culture and religion and it is a byproduct of ignorance. Are critics of Islam to blame because an anti-Muslim fanatic murdered 77 people in Norway in 2011? Of course not. The Pope, Sunni muftis at Al-Azhar university in Cairo etc. have all condemned this attack.
I think Europe can actually learn a lot from the US and its successful integration of immigrants. Of course, the political class in France ranging from Socialists to most Gaulists to FN bigots, all of which sneer at US culture, won’t likely admit or want to do so.
Whatever this persons ideology was, it will be a factor, if he belongs to one of the detestable race hating groups like the KKK, society will condemn his view of the world as disgusting. Anders Behring Breivik committed what I think must qualify as the most disgusting terrorist attack in the EU in my memory, his ideology is widely discussed and condemned. Just take a look at his page on wiki, Anders Behring Breivik It could be argued that the majority of the article discusses his writings, beliefs and groups he identified with. It’s relevant.
The problem the left seems to be having, is for those people who just committed this act of terrorism and other cases recently. The ideology is a strict interpretation of Islam and the left don’t want to accuse all Muslims of sharing their beliefs. Of course not, I know some do, but not in this thread or on Forumosa I would hope. However you can’t just dismiss their ideology either, or calling attacks lone wolf, or as CNN did earlier call this a pack of lone wolfs. Its taken a while, but it seems like some in the Middle East see the problem too.Egypt’s President calls for a 'religious revolution.
In recent times only Sarkozy has had a non-French background (Hungarian).
because it provides new and often cheaper labor pools, especially in countries such as France where the continental system makes it hard to fire and hire employees with lots of seniority. I think anyone with centre-right political sympathies should think along the same lines as I do. I also think that open immigration provides much-needed workers and contributors in countries with generous social safety nets, low birth rates, and entitled youth that may think some types of work are beneath them. Without them, the services economy would not run as smoothly. I totally support free speech and abhor this extremism and have always thought that more money should be spent on surveillance mechanisms and policing to combat such threats. But I don’t think we can completely tie extremism to one religion. There is extremism in every culture and religion and it is a byproduct of ignorance. Are critics of Islam to blame because an anti-Muslim fanatic murdered 77 people in Norway in 2011? Of course not. The Pope, Sunni muftis at Al-Azhar university in Cairo etc. have all condemned this attack.