Vegetables are living things that just can’t run away in my opinion.
Sentience is not an exact science. I find any plant that grows its roots toward water and its leaves toward the sun to be pretty damn smart.
Good idea.
The world be a better place for sure.[/quote]
my emphasis added - ooc
If it’s only animals that concern you, as opposed to people, you would probably enjoy the following.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/story.jsp?story=602272
Just an extract -
[quote]Tamil Nadu bullfighting festivals claim 13 lives
By Justin Huggler in Delhi
19 January 2005
The Indian version of bullfighting is actually closer to the infamous bull-running of Pamplona and, as in Spain, almost every year there are reports of people gored to death. This year more than 350 people were reported injured in a single district of Tamil Nadu.
Tamil bullfighting, Jallikattu, is held to celebrate the Hindu festival of Pongal and the “fights” take place at Hindu temples. At the most famous, at Aranganallur, proceedings began at 11am last Saturday with the temple bull set loose among young, would-be matadors. They compete with each other to snatch a gold chain tied around its horns. They get to keep the chain as a prize, but it is really more about the glory.
After that comes the really wild part of the festival. Five hundred bulls are released into the crowd, as at Pamplona. But in Pamplona the crowd runs. In Tamil Nadu they compete with each other to try to bring the bulls under control.
There are prizes of wrist watches, stainless steel cooking utensils and cash for the winners. But some contenders get tossed into the air on the bulls’ horns, then trampled underfoot. Three youths were reported gored to death at Aranganallur, and there were deaths at several other events.
The origins of bullfighting in Tamil Nadu are not known, but it has been popular for several centuries. Only men take part in what is considered a test of valour, and legend has it that in earlier days women used the sport to choose husbands. Today there is often betting on the outcome.
Unlike in Spanish bullfighting, the bulls are not killed. In Hinduism, bulls are sacred to the god Shiva and it would be unacceptable for the competitors to kill or try to inflict wounds on them. But this has not prevented animal rights activists from objecting as there have been accidental deaths of bulls over the years. The bulls are also said to be given alcohol before the fight. It is highly probable that many of the competitors are in a similar state.
[/quote]
OOC
Compassionate vegetarians?
Have you ever seen how wheat is harvested? Big twirling blades, coming closer, closer, closer, you see your relatives and neighbors brutally mowed down, blades coming closer, you hear them whirring, coming closer. And after this period of emotional torture your turn is up.
Now that’s cruel.
Have you seen animals being killed, sandman? Have you seen a helpless animal being slaughtered? I don’t care if it’s for food or for religious reasons or whatever. Have you seen it? With blood sqirking out and the animal crying for mercy? Well, I have. It was absolutely horrifying. I had nightmares for weeks on end. One inevitably has to ask oneself “what kind of God that one workships would actually demand such rituals in order for oneself to feel “religious”?” How’s slitting throats of millions of sheeps in this case make you closer to God? Unless God’s a sadist, I simply fail to see the need of it.
More importantly, keep in mind that all these organized religions and all the rituals that go along with it were invented [b]by men[/b] for one reason or another–fear of the unknown or for personal gains etc. God didn’t actually say that you have to kill in order to be religious, whatever that means.
Yes I have. In abbatoirs, on farms and in person, as I’m a keen hunter and used to work as a professional pigeon-shooter (saving the precious pea crop for all you veggies 
).
But you haven’t answered the question: Why do you feel that the sacrificing of sheep at the Haj is not a religious ritual?
And BTW, animals don’t “cry for mercy.” Animals don’t have any concept of “mercy.”
Having grown up on a sheep and cattle farm, I believe farm animals are treated very well.
Some ignorant poster mentioned the brutality of cutting off of a sheep’s tail and then mulsing the skin. This is done to prevent flystrike. Which I can assure you is a far, far, more painful condition that will probably result in slow death if untreated.
In fact, one could reasonably argue that the symbiotic relationship between sheep, cattle and humans has led to such spieces being very successful. They are afterall hardly threatened with extinction.
I do have some difficulty with some farm practices though, especially battery hens. That I believe to be a cruel practice that essentially denegrates all of us. I think it is one of the most readily ignored and yet most burning of ethical issues which we face. It totally goes against the grain to treat animals in such a manner. What does it say of our resepect for quality consciousness?
I totally agree. There are many practices in modern animal husbandry that I find abhorrent, but to simply dismiss the entire spectrum of animals-as-food as “cruel” is, to my mind, an extremely blinkered attitude.
It’s a good thing nobody’s told you lot about the custom of stoning the devil at Mount Arafat.
About the sheep (and camel) sacrifice, I think it’s safe to say that nobody 1300 years ago foresaw how big the Hajj would become, or how inconvenient it would be to do all this slaughtering on this one day. There’s way too much for the pilgrims to consume, so they keep looking for ways to get some use out of it (like sending the leftovers to Sudan), but…well, you imagine the logistics. Live sheep are actually easier (for the person who didn’t understand why anyone would ship them to the flood areas), they keep longer!
Yes I have. In abbatoirs, on farms and in person, as I’m a keen hunter and used to work as a professional pigeon-shooter (saving the precious pea crop for all you veggies ).
But you haven’t answered the question: Why do you feel that the sacrificing of sheep at the Haj is not a religious ritual?
And BTW, animals don’t “cry for mercy.” Animals don’t have any concept of “mercy.”[/quote]
Why am I feeling like I’m talking to the devil?
Yes, I have answered your question, sandman. And I don’t really feel like repeating myself. How about asking yourself: “Why do you feel that the sacrificing of sheep at the Haj is a religious ritual?”
And what makes you think the animals don’t have the concept of mercy? Says who? Animals have shown more intelligence than what we’ve given them credit for. I especially remember this particular incident I saw on Animal Planet where a dog put herself in front of the wheels of an imcoming car to save her family’s baby, who had fallen into a crack on the ground and couldn’t get herself up. The people in the car were the family of the baby and the dog was the family dog, who looked after that baby as she’s one of her puppies. But because it was a very sandy day, the father didn’t see the baby. The dog was chasing the car so hard trying to stop the father from going any further because she knew it was going to kill the baby for sure. The father thought the dog was acting really strangely but didn’t think more of it. In the end, the dog ended up having to put herself in front of the car in order to save the baby.
Now before you start, pigs have been known to save their owners, too.
Now if you will excuse me, I’ve got more important things to do then talking to the devil himself.
And let’s not forget dear old Lassie, who rescued little Timmy from the well.
Now off you go and eat your lentils. 
But I’ll answer your question, using your own, ahem, “logic,” which appears to be “It’s not a religious ritual because Dave’s Girl doesn’t like it.”
My answer, in that vein, could be: “It IS a religious ritual because I say it is and I’m bigger and smarter than you.”
But that would be a pretty ignorant method of forming an argument, I’m sure you’ll agree, so instead I’ll rovide you with a link that describes far better than I can why it is a religious ritual.
[url=http://www.irib.ir/worldservice/englishRADIO/ISLAM/eiduadha.htm]Offering sacrifice has a historic record and dates back to children of Adam (PBUH) and their offer of sacrifices for God.
But offering sacrifice in Haj pilgrimage is a kind of renewal of the memory of Abraham (PBUH) and his servitude at the Divine Court. Regarding the story of Abraham
…[/quote]
Why am I feeling like I’m talking to the devil?
Now if you will excuse, I’ve got more important things to do then talking to the devil himself.[/quote]
Well, Sandman, since the Devil’s Advocate is a Scots invention, you should feel rightly promoted. And maybe even comfortable.
OOC
Or Rigo the doberman, who dragged my unconscious grandfather out of a gas-filled room, down the stairs and onto the street.
We like Scotsmen…for dinner!
Or Rigo the doberman, who dragged my unconscious grandfather out of a gas-filled room, down the stairs and onto the street.[/quote]
Juba, I used to train gundogs and have seen them do many strange things, but it doesn’t alter the fact that Eidol Adha is a religious ritual, however distasteful Dave’s Girl might find it.
So let me get this straight, sandman, you asked me: “Why do you feel that the sacrificing of sheep at the Haj is not a religious ritual?” To which I answered, [quote]Have you seen animals being killed, sandman? Have you seen a helpless animal being slaughtered? I don’t care if it’s for food or for religious reasons or whatever. Have you seen it? With blood sqirking out and the animal crying for mercy? Well, I have. It was absolutely horrifying. I had nightmares for weeks on end. One inevitably has to ask oneself “what kind of God that one workships would actually demand such rituals in order for oneself to feel “religious”?” How’s slitting throats of millions of sheeps in this case make you closer to God? Unless God’s a sadist, I simply fail to see the need of it.
More importantly, keep in mind that all these organized religions and all the rituals that go along with it were invented [b]by men[/b] for one reason or another–fear of the unknown or for personal gains etc. God didn’t actually say that you have to kill in order to be religious, whatever that means.[/quote]
You then responded:[quote=“sandman”]"But I’ll answer your question, using your own, ahem, “logic,” which appears to be “It’s not a religious ritual because Dave’s Girl doesn’t like it.”[/quote]
[color=indigo]Do you even know what the word “feel” means?!
[/color] :loco: :loco: :loco: :loco: :loco:
Then not surprisingly, to my question “Why do you feel that the sacrificing of sheep at the Haj is a religious ritual?” You referred to the history! Ha! How come I didn’t think of it! How about forgetting about the history. Forget about who says what. Can’t you think for yourself? Instead of referring to history, I ask you:
[color=red][i]Where is your compassion? Have you got any?
[/color][/i]
Dave’s girl…the Haj is a religious ritual…why do you assume people sacrificing sheep there is not a religious ritual. As for historial references, well considering almost every world religious is more than a few hundred years old then yes, it would be a historial reference.
And what exactly would you like us to do about this injustice to these sheep? Not go on the Haj? Not sacrifice a sheep? Well you can rest assured I won’t be going. Do you feel better?
When a religious ritual becomes an environmental problem then the ritual can go suck an easter egg for all I care. Ghost money, a million sheep with slit throats screaming jesus hit the nail right on it’s head.
SJ,
The reason for live sheep transport, at least to the middle east, isn’t necessarily that the sheep keep longer, it is because the mussellmen want to ensure the sheep are bled and dressed in a “clean” way. They don’t trust Christians, especially those wearing gum boots, not to soil the lambs. Most butchered meat is transported chilled or frozen. It is far less stressful on the sheep. Now there is an irony in there somewhere, I know.
I agree with bob though once a religous ceremony becomes an enviromental hazzard, it’s best to knock it on the head. Most of those attending the stoning of the devil ought just throw the stones directly up into the air and wait a few seconds.
I agree. Regardless of whether you agree with what sandman writes, there is no need to throw rocks at him. :snooty:
I saw on CNN last night that the meat from the slaughtered sheep is going to be given ot the poor.
So, it is not as if it were all going to be wasted. And I don’t recall reading anywhere that the Muslims will be jumping up and down screaming the equivalent of “Yeeha!” when they are killed.
Now, some American Indians used to run buffalo off a cliff and watch them fall to their deaths. Their take on this “cruelty” was that the animals are willing sacrifices, allowing themselves to be killed so that humans could live. And the Indians greatly respected the buffalo or this, even creating the Buffalo Dance to show their respect.
I do not think this killing of these sheep is a bloodthirsty thing. And the butchers that do slaughter them are probably much better at it than the ignorant near-slave laborers that slaughter cows in the US on dis-assemblylines.
Headhunting in Kalimantan, Indonesia was a religious/cultural practice (still in effect as late as 2001) while Suttee was a ritual practiced in both India and Bali. Should these be protected as well?