[quote=“tommy525”]IT can be a thin line and many taiwanese are also ,believe it or not, unhappy with these types of questions.
Certain questions are acceptable depending on who is doing the asking as well. I have many tW friends and I have never seen this degrading of women you speak about in the group, but thats just my personal experience.
What kind of people they are and what social status they are can also determine how they interact within their group as well.
A bunch of taimei and taike hanging out will have different conversations then a group of businessmen and their wives I would think.[/quote]
How could you never see or hear that? The pressure on women to have light skin is huge in offices here. As soon as you put on weight they will point it out to you too. Men are particularly cruel here to women, which is ironic as many of them arent too hot themselves. Anything different is commented on publicly. I once had a fat colleague ask me why my face was so red in front of an entire board meeting! Well it is because of my natural complexion of course but got redder when twenty pairs of eyes stared at me! It took enormous restraint not to blurt out why are you … … back.
The thing is this colleague was always the one to share her lunch and have a chat, she just did the tTiwanese thing of opening her mouth before thinking, so you just have to step up and over these things and be the bigger (or slimmer but redder) man. The weird thing is she must be subject to a lot of this type of commentary herself due to her girth but she just perpetuated it.
There is a lot of this negative commentary here and I know a lot of Taiwanese hate it too but are far too polite to hit back, they just smile and take the hit. This extends to numerous obasans telling my wife she is doing this or that wrong with the baby within one minute of meeting them. I tell them to shut their mouths myself. Hopefully the society will get a bit more positive over time.
The Taiwanese have different ideas about what questions are “private”.
Taiwanese tend to be less curious about other Taiwanese. They already know about the culture they live in and the language they speak. They already have an idea about their lifestyles.
In the West, we have had heterogenous populations for a long time. We see an Asian or African or Indian-looking person on the train, but we conclude they’re not from elsewhere. Taiwan is different: you see someone who doesn’t look Chinese and you reasonably conclude that he is from elsewhere.
I already mentioned that there are dickheads here, and that not all encounters with chatty strangers are friendly.
I’ve lived in Taiwan for nigh unto 12 years, and I’ve had my fair share of assholes and weirdos come up and talk to me out of the blue, completely unwanted. But they’re the exception rather than the rule. By far the most common chit chats with strangers are harmless.
Why not? There are lots of students here. They do things like live in Yonghe and eat at noodle shops.
[quote]Why are you here", “What are you doing here?”, “How much do you pay for rent?”, “Why can you speak English?”, “Wow! Your English is so good!”, “How long until you go home?”, “How often do you visit home?”, “Can you read and write English?”, “Can I see your ID?”, “You don’t look British, I don’t believe you”, or “You should find a British girlfriend”
No, these are not norms of polite conversation in Taiwan![/quote]
Most of these are normal in Taiwan. “How much do you make?” “How much do you weigh?” "How much do you pay for rent? “What’s your blood type?” These are not considered rude questions in Taiwanese culture.
“Why are you here?”, “What are you doing here?”, “How long until you go home?”, “How often do you visit home?” They see that you’re not “from” here, and are curious about why you came here. To many of them, living away from home and family for extended periods is a difficult concept to comprehend. (Taiwan isn’t a place like the US or UK where people dream of immigrating to, so it’s unlikely anyone besides Immigration will ask similar questions back home.)
“Why can you speak English?”, “Wow! Your English is so good!”,“Can you read and write English?” Odd questions, but such questions are often naively asked by people learning their first foreign languages. (I admit when I was a kid I asked a Chinese guy if he could write Chinese, which struck me as impossibly complex.)
“Can I see your ID?”, “You should find a British girlfriend.” These are odd, intrusive and rather aggressive questions. I’ve never been asked them myself, and I would write the person off as a dick.
[quote]You can check for yourself by asking Taiwanese people this kind of questions. Try to do this when microaggression casts his ugly shadow on your existence. Just once!
Try the following: enter a noodle store and go to the next person (unknown to you) and ask (smiling and nodding your head) in Chinese: “are you originally from Taipei? Oh Pingdong – how often do you visit home. How much money do you make these days? Are you married?”[/quote]
Remember, the assumption is that you’re the interesting foreigner “visiting” what is a relatively homogeneous country, and they’re the ordinary people who have lived here all their lives. You’re the outsider, probably here temporarily, so the locals are curious about you.
One great thing about Taiwan: it’s a relatively non-touristed place. In many heavily touristed places, when a stranger approaches you, they’re doing it for one reason: to sell you something. Now THAT’s annoying.
Again: Yes, there are dicks here. Yes, some encounters are aggressive. But the majority of the time, when someone here approaches you to talk, it’s because you’re the visitor whose life is very different from the local people, and they’re curious. Or maybe they just want to try out their English.
wrong answer! It is not likely that someone will talk to her - but it might well be that someone will tell her boss that she escaped her work-prison for a moment to get some food on her own - she might get fired from her job and deported… or worse.
It does frustrate me when people come up to me out of the blue and want to ask me questions, especially of a very personal nature. As has been pointed out, that isn’t really the social norm in probably most places in the world. I don’t think it’s wrong to be frustrated by that. As for when I’m in an actual social setting, I figure out pretty quickly whether I’m going to be able to communicate beyond introductions with somebody. If I know they’re only going to be able to say one or two sentences to me, then I humour them. Those people aren’t the annoying ones for me. The annoying people for me are those who know enough English to bombard me with pretty annoying questions for the next five minutes, but not enough English that I can give interesting answers (either taking the piss or being sincere) or we can a conversation that doesn’t sound like a textbook dialogue. Then I try to give extremely brief answers to exhaust their English as quickly as possible.
Having said that, every time I go back to Australia and find myself in a social setting with people I do not know extremely well, I find small talk unbelievably unbearable now. It’s the same when I meet a lot of foreigners here too. I just hate small talk.
One thing I will say in favour of the Taiwanese though is that generally speaking, they at least have the manners to let you finish a sentence before exiting the conversation. There are some people, however, such as both of my sisters-in-law (especially the younger), who are really rude and will just interupt a conversation to start their own inconsequential conversation. It drives me up the wall when I’m having a conversation that someone else initiated and they literally leave or start talking to someone else while I’m mid-sentence. I’ve noticed it more from foreigners here than from the general populace in Western countries, though it still happens there. My wife also remarked upon this the last time we were in Australia after it happened to her several times and after she witnessed Australians doing it to other Australians.
As an aside, I was in Lithuania and walking through a park with a Jamacian guy. A local woman started really staring at him. He said, “This is great. Take my camera.” She realised he was walking directly towards her and started freaking out. He sat down and insisted I take a photo of them together. He told me he did it all the time. Kind of a prickish thing to do in a way, but very funny.
Flakman: I’m glad you mentioned that. There are plenty of people in the West too who are sussing you out with questions about your job, where you live, etc. right from the moment they meet you too, but that is something I have heard a lot about Singaporeans. Sometimes, it is just small talk though.
I agree. Most of the time there are no bad intentions, or desire to offend. They are just curious and have a different way of expressing it. There is a certain refreshing honestly in many of these interactions because they really aren’t trying to get money or anything else from you, they are just being friendly and curious.
If they overstep the boundaries, ignore them or smile and tell them it’s not nice to ask such personal questions. You can also start asking them the same types of questions, you both might learn something from the exchange.
If you feel like a victim, you will always be one. I understand where a lot of your hostile and frustrated feelings come from, but at a point, you’re not going to win, so just learn a better way to deAl with these negative reactions you have. I apple-solutely hate it when ppl tell me taiwanesepeople are being “Qin1 qie4” but we taiwanesepeople are so Qin qie! We like to be close to you! No, you think Qin qie but we think nosy and offensive. But you just have to learn to have thicker skin and hahahahah everything and duiduidui everything. I’m still working on it myself, but I think my tude is “It looks like I’m laughing with you but I’m laughing at you!”. No need to be snarky or better than thou, you can correct ppl nicely, and always ask them questions, shows you are interested even if you’re not, but they will see you as an individual instead of just another foreign face.
In the elevator the other day, a korean neighbor toldme I look sick and tired and I should take a nap. Great thanks.
Anyway, we live in tianmu where we can get on in English . My husband has not used his Chinese skills at all. All the kids around town speak English, are mixed, or are not Taiwanese. Your multiracial kids will defnotgetanyextra unwantedattentionhere. But maybe then I’m sure ppl will complain that their cute mixed kids dont get the attention they would otherwise get elsewhere. You angry folks ought to move here. No attention, no questions, you will be just another boring personto everyone else.
Don’t let the conversation get framed in terms of just little questions. It goes waaaaaay beyond that. Into actual aggression.
Things like standing there and staring at you, you say hello, they continue to stare, you say “nihao,” they continue to stare and look like they just swallowed something vile. The times I’ve had someone introduce me, I say hello in Chinese, then they turn to my host and ask, “does he speak Chinese?” drives me up the wall.
And with kids it’s much, much worse. I took my son to QingNian park in WanHua and the other kids there glared at him non-stop. They were as rude as they could be. 20 minutes later he asked me to leave because he said he didn’t like it there. Then there was the time I took him to an indoor park and a girl called him a monster and went and told the other kids to run away from the monster. Then there was the time down south we’re playing with the kids in the park and the man pushing his daughter on the swing next to us starts talking about “huan xie er” and I tell my son not to listen to them. The girl asked her father why I spoke English to my son and the dad replied, “Because foreigners can’t speak Chinese.” My wife gave him an earful in Taiwanese.
Many times especially outside of Taipei, entire families at restaurants will just sit there and glare at us the entire time we’re eating. I used to say to them “You shenme hao kande?” but my wife didn’t like that too much. Now I just glare back.
I’m sure others have experienced this and it wears you down after a while.
I haven’t been asked how much I make for a long time now. That either means I am projecting a forcefield of ‘don’t even ask that’ or that society has changed and people don’t ask so many personal questions anymore.
I think very few Taiwanese would willingly tell strangers how much they make these days. A lot of Taiwanese and Asians are very eager to practice their English but their vocabulary and ability is limited so it tends to go back to the same generic questions. A bigger problem is their lack of knowledge of the ‘outside world’ in many cases. You don’t get that as much with Filipinos for example as many have worked overseas for years. Even educated people in Taiwan who have studied overseas have rarely worked overseas for long and if they did before it was to the US or Canada. Now with the advent of working holidays I expect that the younger generation is going to be a lot more clued in than previous generations.
You can have more interesting conversations with people who have had extensive dealings with foreigners over time. There is an old dude I chat to here who used to be a driver for the American military and also worked as a tourist guide. Always have chilled out interactions with him. I feel a bit bad that I am more willing to talk English with him than with people whose English is really bad but hey it’s good conversation I want, not to be a free English teacher.
[quote=“Formosa Fitness”]Don’t let the conversation get framed in terms of just little questions. It goes waaaaaay beyond that. Into actual aggression.
Things like standing there and staring at you, you say hello, they continue to stare, you say “nihao,” they continue to stare and look like they just swallowed something vile. The times I’ve had someone introduce me, I say hello in Chinese, then they turn to my host and ask, “does he speak Chinese?” drives me up the wall.
And with kids it’s much, much worse. I took my son to QingNian park in WanHua and the other kids there glared at him non-stop. They were as rude as they could be. 20 minutes later he asked me to leave because he said he didn’t like it there. Then there was the time I took him to an indoor park and a girl called him a monster and went and told the other kids to run away from the monster. Then there was the time down south we’re playing with the kids in the park and the man pushing his daughter on the swing next to us starts talking about “huan xie er” and I tell my son not to listen to them. The girl asked her father why I spoke English to my son and the dad replied, “Because foreigners can’t speak Chinese.” My wife gave him an earful in Taiwanese.
Many times especially outside of Taipei, entire families at restaurants will just sit there and glare at us the entire time we’re eating. I used to say to them “You shenme hao kande?” but my wife didn’t like that too much. Now I just glare back.
I’m sure others have experienced this and it wears you down after a while.[/quote]
Great post.
The original article did a much better job articulating my feelings living in Taiwan than I ever have. I also feel “worn down” after being in Taiwan too long. Standing on the MRT and having parents begin speaking terrible English to their kids once I’m in earshot. The assumption that white people are all from America and can’t understand Chinese. The assumption that I’m an English teacher also annoys me.
Also, why is it that it’s always some crazy middle aged dude that comes up to me with an excuse to practice his English and never a hot chick? Maybe I’m just unlucky.
Anyway, I thought it was a great article that helped me understand why I react the way I do to certain situations.
No, it’s for the same reason that middle aged dudes act crazily everywhere: because they’re middle aged dudes. Traditionally, guys who acted like idiots would have been eaten by lions or broken a leg and died from infection (or being eaten by a lion). Because this hasn’t happened though, they have actually flipped it around in their heads. To them, it’s because they’re idiots that they have not only survived, but prospered. Thus, if they come up to you and act like an idiot, they will only prosper further, and in some twisted way, they’re probably right. The shy, hot chick doesn’t speak as much English as them, after all.
I can’t remember the last time I’ve answered a too personal question truthfully. Yes, I’m a German nuclear engineer here to dismantle the No. 2 nuclear power plant. Didn’t you hear about the radiation leak? The entire north coast is fucked. Yes, I’m a Swedish chef here to learn the secrets of o-a-zen. I’m planning on opening a line of Taiwanese restaurants all around northern Europe. Taiwanese xiaochi is just the best! Yes, I’m a Canadian English teacher here and I love screwing Taiwanese girls. My God, it’s so easy to lie to them and trick them.
[quote=“Formosa Fitness”]Don’t let the conversation get framed in terms of just little questions. It goes waaaaaay beyond that. Into actual aggression.
Things like standing there and staring at you, you say hello, they continue to stare, you say “nihao,” they continue to stare and look like they just swallowed something vile. The times I’ve had someone introduce me, I say hello in Chinese, then they turn to my host and ask, “does he speak Chinese?” drives me up the wall.
And with kids it’s much, much worse. I took my son to QingNian park in WanHua and the other kids there glared at him non-stop. They were as rude as they could be. 20 minutes later he asked me to leave because he said he didn’t like it there. Then there was the time I took him to an indoor park and a girl called him a monster and went and told the other kids to run away from the monster. Then there was the time down south we’re playing with the kids in the park and the man pushing his daughter on the swing next to us starts talking about “huan xie er” and I tell my son not to listen to them. The girl asked her father why I spoke English to my son and the dad replied, “Because foreigners can’t speak Chinese.” My wife gave him an earful in Taiwanese.
Many times especially outside of Taipei, entire families at restaurants will just sit there and glare at us the entire time we’re eating. I used to say to them “You shenme hao kande?” but my wife didn’t like that too much. Now I just glare back.
I’m sure others have experienced this and it wears you down after a while.[/quote]
I can understand how it’s much more difficult with kids. It’s hard enough for kids to deal with rude/mean children in their own culture, but this is very extreme for them. As adults we can easily look at the source, and not get annoyed so much, not as easy for children who just want to fit in.
I would think that this will eventually get better. When they reach a certain age, they might even be popular and accepted. I hope your son can make some good friends and avoid the aggressive rude children as much as possible. I can imagine how hard it is to watch this happen. Sensitivity to other peoples feelings isn’t something Taiwanese generally seem to have, at least for people that are not close friends or family. If this were to be reversed, they surely wouldn’t like it.
For me, it isn’t harmful and is not a big deal , but if I had children I might feel completely different about it.
That kind of reminds me of something one of my friends used to do. Whenever he had to fill in “occupation” on a form he would write something completely absurd, the best one being “world’s tallest man” (he’s about 175cm). I thought I’d try that too. I wrote my occupation as “porn star” on a trip back from Europe. I went through about five airports and got one strange look. Then, I arrived back in Melbourne and got an earful about how we need to take these things seriously because of the War on Terror (because if I’d lied and written “architect” or “plumber” he really would have known I was lying, and obviously, every terrorist is going to write “bomb maker”…War of Idiocy is more like it) from the guy at passport control.
ironlady, nice try with the “chip routine” and your “I chat up folks all the time” performance - just you have not really addressed anything, have you? I can chat up local people too, I chatted up paogao in the middle of a crowded street downtown Taipei and even forced some English on him before he knew it, the charmer I am.
Believe me - if you would try to talk to people the way Taiwanese talk to me and to any other Westerners / in the same situations (assuming that I share the same situations with others - like confirmed already on this thread) you would not be so successful. The way you present yourself here (intelligent & eloquent) I bet you can’t even do it even if you try.
[quote=“Homey”][quote=“Formosa Fitness”]Don’t let the conversation get framed in terms of just little questions. It goes waaaaaay beyond that. Into actual aggression.
Things like standing there and staring at you, you say hello, they continue to stare, you say “nihao,” they continue to stare and look like they just swallowed something vile. The times I’ve had someone introduce me, I say hello in Chinese, then they turn to my host and ask, “does he speak Chinese?” drives me up the wall.
And with kids it’s much, much worse. I took my son to QingNian park in WanHua and the other kids there glared at him non-stop. They were as rude as they could be. 20 minutes later he asked me to leave because he said he didn’t like it there. Then there was the time I took him to an indoor park and a girl called him a monster and went and told the other kids to run away from the monster. Then there was the time down south we’re playing with the kids in the park and the man pushing his daughter on the swing next to us starts talking about “huan xie er” and I tell my son not to listen to them. The girl asked her father why I spoke English to my son and the dad replied, “Because foreigners can’t speak Chinese.” My wife gave him an earful in Taiwanese.
Many times especially outside of Taipei, entire families at restaurants will just sit there and glare at us the entire time we’re eating. I used to say to them “You shenme hao kande?” but my wife didn’t like that too much. Now I just glare back.
I’m sure others have experienced this and it wears you down after a while.[/quote]
I can understand how it’s much more difficult with kids. It’s hard enough for kids to deal with rude/mean children in their own culture, but this is very extreme for them. As adults we can easily look at the source, and not get annoyed so much, not as easy for children who just want to fit in.
I would think that this will eventually get better. When they reach a certain age, they might even be popular and accepted. I hope your son can make some good friends and avoid the aggressive rude children as much as possible. I can imagine how hard it is to watch this happen. Sensitivity to other peoples feelings isn’t something Taiwanese generally seem to have, at least for people that are not close friends or family. If this were to be reversed, they surely wouldn’t like it.
For me, it isn’t harmful and is not a big deal , but if I had children I might feel completely different about it.[/quote]
I’m sympathetic too, but, seriously, what do people expect? Does anyone think that an Asian kid in an all white neighbourhood on the other side of the world would have a better experience? My son’s the only white kid in his entire school and we live in an area with very few foreigners and so far we’ve had one stupid Taiwanese attitude in 8 months. In the meantime we’ve experienced so much positivity from the people around us I can no longer count or remember all the incidents. If you want to protect your kids from other kids being mean they’re going to lead very lonely lives.
Sure, I agree. It should would be nice to blend into the background sometimes though. The focus on looks and stereotyping is a problem though for the society at large.
My wife worries more about this than me, she’s afraid that our kids will grow up with a false sense of superiority from all the undeserved attention and praise for just being ‘Hun xie’. I know a few people who grew up in Asia or traded on their looks and while they are great people I think it holds them back in the end.
So it’s a nice problem to have but it’s still something to be aware of!
I went to pay my rent yesterday, to Serbians. He walks in and says, “God, sk, you look shattered.” Then he walks out and the wife walks in and says to me, “God, sk you look very well.” It’s just mindless blather. I’m not gonna go home and start looking in the mirror and worrying which of them was correct. And I am certainly not going to shy away from them, or be annoyed by them, or draw stupid conclusions about what ALL Serbians must be like as a nation.
I have psoriasis on my skin. A LOT of psoriasis. I can’t show my flesh without British people looking, staring, pointing, asking me what it is, being rude and insensitive (from time to time). I know fully well how it feels to want to just cover your face up all the time, because you can’t be fucked with that same conversation AGAIN. But this happens to me the world over. It’s human behaviour to be curious about things you don’t know. It’s human behaviour to sometimes be a dick about it. And it is human behaviour to wish it would just go away. YOU guys can get on a plane and go home and it will all be over for you. But you insist on staying. That would be like me insisting on walking down the street with my shirt off, wearing shorts and then going bonkers about people keep asking me about my psoriasis.
I have learnt to cover up (the equivalent for you is to use an ipod or read the paper) to just act more casual about it (I can explain what it is) and just get used to it (realise that ALL PEOPLE are curious, it’s not You VS Taiwan).
Some of y’all really need to have a think about these stupid little things that you are allowing yourself to get ticked off about. Go home to the West for a month and get a healthy dose of how ignorant, stupid, thoughtless, and curious your own group of people are. Maybe then being asked, “Are you American?” when you are sat on the train noticing exactly who is noticing you, won’t seem like such a big deal any more.
Nice contribution SK, still remember we also have families here too and we are usually pretty isolated in Taiwan so we often have to figure these things out ourselves. If we can’t get it off our chests here where can we talk about it.
Listening to the inane conversations on what passes for public transport gets me over my fairytale construction of living back in the West. That and taking a tube ride and seeing all those dead to the world faces!
Yesterday I brought my kid to the playground, nice folks with their kids there, of course my kid gets too much attention sometimes, at one point five adults are staring down at him, so I have to really balance not being rude back to the Taiwanese parents at times as most of them are actually really friendly just overbearing. I did tell one to look at her own kids, didnt go down well but sometimes it has to be said. Interestingly it is the waiguo peiou foreign spouses that chat with me the most easily, guess we have shared experiences.
[quote=“touduke”]
Believe me - if you would try to talk to people the way Taiwanese talk to me and to any other Westerners / in the same situations (assuming that I share the same situations with others - like confirmed already on this thread) you would not be so successful. The way you present yourself here (intelligent & eloquent) I bet you can’t even do it even if you try.[/quote]
It’s nice of you to describe me that way, but are you maybe thinking of me in English? I’m different in English, Spanish and Chinese (really). And when I’m in “Chinese mode”, I do what is expected with strangers – state or ask a question about the most obvious thing in sight. Someone comes into the door soaking wet? “Ah, raining out, is it?” Someone’s lying in the street bleeding? “Had an accident, did you?” Statements that would get you punched out in the West, or earn a scathing “You think, genius?” at the very least.
I like Chinese people for that very reason: I can deal with them socially. I know what to do. They respond the way I expect. Everyone is happy. Americans – not so much.
