Why do foreigners like A-Bian?

Politics Taiwan Politics
61

Firstly, I think CSB is doing everything just try to stay in presidency and as for Lian - a corrupted businessman and Song - he’s just a weasel. Both sides will do no good for TW, but I trust less Lian Song, they will sell TW to anyone who can pay a price.

as for KMT, surely they’ve had a bloody history. But old Jiang’s son did a good job building TW’s economy infrastructure… if it weren’t for KMT at those times, TW wouldn’t be the planet’s center of semiconductor manufacturing as it is today. Look what CSB’s government has planned for the future ? in maybe 3, 5 10 years ? all I see from his campaine is using TW independece to get voters.

Personally I don’t mind wether TW goes back or goes independent. But as for now, TW independence is a fallancy that these guys are using to etablish their political power. There are tons of TWnese currently working in china, also lots of TWnese businesses setting companies, factories there, some of they are quiet politically influencial. If TW ever declares independence now, china will probably mount an attack (for chinese this is more a matter of losing face than soveignty). But either way all these businesse are going to get fucked… and TW will take a big economy backstep, with no hope of ever recovering soon. No country will care or want to step in front of china’s way.

Twnese independence should comes from it’s strengh in economy, forming economic allies with other countries, invest in TW’s infrastructure, build TW’s image as someone superior than china, not only ecomonically, but also in culture and mainly, its people… It is a long road and requires carefull planning to avoid bloodshed.

62

Much of Taiwan’s infrastructure was in fact built by the Japanese. Taiwan’s economic miracle occured largely in spite of the KMT’s heavy-handed centralized economic planning rather than because of it as they would have you believe.

The growth of the semiconductor industry may be an exception, but most of that took place in the 1990s after the death of the younger Jiang.

63

The fact that Taiwan was one of the 3 largest recipients* of US foreign aid between 1950 and 1980 might also have something to do with Taiwan’s economic success. And don’t forget that the Chiang’s brought over the gold reserves from China as well as seizing South Vietnam’s gold reserves when Thieu fled to Taiwan in 1975.

*(The other 2 were Israel and South Vietnam)

64

Aaarrghh! This is nonsense. Please see some of the basic texts on Taiwan economic development – Ho’s Economic Development of Taiwan 1860-1970, Lee’s Intersectoral Capital Flows in the Economic Development of Taiwan 1895-1960, Jacoby’s US Aid to Taiwan, and the work of people like Hill Gates, Susan Greenhalgh, and others who have written on the informal family economy. Also good is Hsieh’s Boss Island. The idea that the KMT led economic growth in Taiwan is 1980s mythology designed to legitimize the party’s rule over Taiwan.

Vorkosigan

65

Aaarrghh! This is nonsense. [/quote]

Absolutely! It’s like brainwashed people in the PRC singing the praises of the Communist Party dictatorship. But there’s far less excuse for anyone to believe such nonsense here and now in Taiwan.

66

That must have been a lot of work to format and respond to. I should take the same effort, but instead I’ll just make a few flippant remarks.

Why would you say that? In my opinion, the type of people who are willing to brush aside the KMT’s bloody past are willing to do so not because they think the KMT is now somehow a reformed party, but because they just don’t care what the KMT did wrong in the first place. These are the types of people who think that everything the KMT’s hooligans did was justified. Many of these people don’t give a damn if 99% of Taiwan is pro-independence and is willing to indicate such in a referendum. If only 1% of Taiwan is still blue, some of these people will still want to drag the rest of Taiwan back into China kicking, screaming and almost certainly bleeding.
[/quote]

I don’t think Pan-Blue would bother running if only 1% of the country was Blue, but maybe, we’ll see when the Polls come in.

[quote=“Jive Turkey”]

How have they isolated Taiwan? Please give an example, preferably one other than the tired old “the DPP is cutting Taiwan off from the rest of the world because they won’t let Taiwan use Hanyu Pinyin” rant. [/quote]
Before Li DunHui (I can use pinyin hanyu) made his pro-independence stance clear Taiwan had gone a long way toward improving relations with China. Since he made his ‘state-to-state relations’ decloration, Taiwan’s negotiators were sent home and haven’t returned. Chen, under US pressure, withdrew from his own party to appease Beijing, but has returned to serve concurrently as Chairman of the DPP. More recently, Chen has further isolated Taiwan but bungling relations with its biggest ally, the US, by pushing through the referendum plan (for those of you who live in a cave).

[quote=“Jive Turkey”]

What do you mean “the best thing Taiwan has got going for it now”? If CSB were so bad for business, then surely business wouldn’t be the best thing Taiwan has going for it now. Yes, CSB’s economic policies are to the left of the KMT’s, but the KMT’s corruption have hindered economic development just as much or more than any of CSB’s “anti-business” policies. [/quote]

Taiwan is diplomaticaly in near-isolation. It’s sole international sthrength come from its importance in the world economy. A possible second would be an apreciation for having built a democracy.

How was this bad for the economy? If it has somehow been bad for business, then why was it not a worthwhile trade off?[/quote]
Higher power bills. If utilities are higher the cost of manufacturing is higher, if the cost of doing business is higher international businesses will be more likely to look elsewhere to put a factory.

[quote=“Jive Turkey”]

This is a completely subjective statement. Who is to say Chen is trying to get rid of too much mainland culture? You say there’s nothing good to replace it. While I’m no big fan of Taiwan’s local culture myself, I think your above statement does nothing but expose your own prejudices and reactionary views. I hope you’re not trying to pass it off as some sort of “analysis.” :unamused:[/quote]
Woah, that wasn’t nice. First, I didn’t say Chen was trying to get rid of Mainland culture, I said Chinese culture. Chen is just about as Chinese (han-zhu ren, not Zhong-guo ren) as anyone on the mainland. It would be kind of like America and Canada saying “We don’t want to be like Europe so we’ll all emphasize the Navaho and Creek and Cherrokee and all the other indiginious cultures and confuse everyone by making some teachers speak Cajun or French or Spanish regardless of wheather all the students understand it or not. We’ll keep New Year’s day but throw out Easter and Christmas and replace them with touchy-feely celebrations that make us feel good to be who we are.”
The fact is, Taiwan is just about as Chinese as any other place full of Chinese people, be it Shanghai, Guandong, Singapore, or San Francisco’s Chinatown. While each place has its own individual character, wherever there are Chinese people (han-zhu ren, again) there will be Chinese culture.
Incidentally, I have studied Chinese culture and history for many years, and I AM a big fan of the local culture. China has a long and great history, a history that goes back to the times when my European ancestors were still chucking spears at one another. Not that that makes them better in any way, I’m just saying it shoudn’t be tossed because Chen and a minority of others dislike their cousins across the strait.
Be yourself people, whoever you are.
Bill

67

CSB had the potential to be a good leader, and I believe that at one time he really did love Taiwan and believe in something. Unfortunately, as happens with many, many politicians, he let the power go to his head. I think now he’s more concerned with just hanging onto power, his own inflated ego, and lining his pockets (as did Lee Teng-hui, the great “Father of Taiwanese Democracy”) than he is with Taiwan. He’s also appointed a lot of hack ministers who have little to no experience in the areas that they are supposed to be overseeing. Morally speaking, the KMT is not much better of a choice, but as Poagao stated, practicality needs to be put before idealism, and I think Taiwan will be a more stable place under KMT leadership.

68

If you discard the nonsense that October 25, 1945, was “Taiwan Retrocession Day” . . . . . all of the international developments affecting Taiwan over the last fifty years make sense.

However, the Taiwan government authorities insist on “equal recognition” as a basis for talks between the officials on both sides of the Taiwan Strait, and that is not going to happen because the “Republic of China” has no legitimacy internationally . . . . it is just a government in exile.

69

Its not just a government in exile… it is a territory and a people with an economy, a legal system and a military and foreign relations.

70

…and its own convertable currency.

71

[quote=“marky”]If you discard the nonsense that October 25, 1945, was “Taiwan Retrocession Day” . . . . . all of the international developments affecting Taiwan over the last fifty years make sense.

[/quote]

If we discard objective facts in favor of legalistic nonsense, everything makes sense. AAAANNNHHH! next contestant!

I agree, this troubled me. I think he has badly mishandled the whole thing.

[quote]
Chen, under US pressure, withdrew from his own party to appease Beijing, but has returned to serve concurrently as Chairman of the DPP.[/quote]

I think he’s admirably tried to avoid antagonizing China. I bet if you had imagined what he was going to do 4 years ago it would have been far more than he has. Why shouldn’t he serve as head of his party? You can’t fault him for being elected President for crying out loud. China wouldn’t talk to him if he quit his party and painted the five stars on in facepaint. Maybe that’s because they know it will be much more to their advantage to talk with the KMT when they are elected now or at some point in the future.

[quote=“littlebuddha”]
CSB had the potential to be a good leader, and I believe that at one time he really did love Taiwan and believe in something. Unfortunately, as happens with many, many politicians, he let the power go to his head. I think now he’s more concerned with just hanging onto power, his own inflated ego, and lining his pockets (as did Lee Teng-hui, the great “Father of Taiwanese Democracy”) than he is with Taiwan. He’s also appointed a lot of hack ministers who have little to no experience in the areas that they are supposed to be overseeing.[/quote]

I totally disagree. I think you won’t find a more down to earth politician anywhere, nor a more patriotic one, or a less corrupt and venal one. He has been handicapped by his own and his party’s lack of experience not to mention the complete unwillingness of the opposition to cooperate with him.

Hello? this is like saying water is not much stickier than molasses. or something like that i think :slight_smile:

Blueface hit the nail on the head, massive us aid was of great help to Taiwan, not to mention pressure to undertake key reforms, but I would give the kmt credit for overseeing the whole thing once it got rolling. not to mention what the economy might look like now if they hadn’t come over in 1949. :slight_smile:

72

[quote=“serafin” No country will care or want to step in front of China’s way.[/quote]

Many Taiwanese I talk to seem to have this belief that no one… even the US would come to their aid if war broke out. I seriously don’t understand this one.

America sent their battleships to the strait over 1 blank missile fired in protest from the mainland and you think they wouldn’t come to Taiwan if it faced greater danger?

A majority Americans would rather fight for Taiwan than most Taiwanese. It’s almost sad. Why…

Why should America come to the aid of a country whose people aren’t even willing to fight for themselves?

73

As for the disparity Poagoa mentioned of how many Taiwanese support the KMT, well…

…recent polls have show that around 50% of the people in Russia still think that Stalin was a great leader. I mean, he gave the country stability, yes? And sure, he may had his excesses, but can you argue with the fact that he built up the economy? C’mon, the economy under Stalin was a lot better than the economy since the Commies were kicked out. Bring back the Communist Party and bring back the good times when Russia was a world power to be feared and you didn’t have to worry about gangsters everywhere! Yeah! Dictatorship ROCKS! Franco and Pinochet and Mussolini were awesome for their countries’ economies! So was the Shah!

Force of habit is a hard thing to break. And the fact that many entrenched bureacrats from the old regime are still sitting there to dole out corruption doesn’t help matters. The Communist parties still do very well in Eastern Europe for these reasons. The KMT does even better because Taiwan never had a national purging like the ex-Soviet Bloc dictatorships did. Instead, it was a slow, piecemeal process, leaving many of the fascists still in powerful and influential positions. If James Soong had been Polish or Romanian he would have been hanged in 1989.

74

There is no future with China, GOPBill. How can you have “good relations” with a nation bent on destroying you? The US will live with the referendum because it has to. On the major issues it is cooperating with Taiwan, and there is finally some indication that the US is going to permit joint traing and othey key military reform moves. Further, the US congress is solidly behind Taiwan and the referendum will not hurt relations there. The State Department and the Administration may be realpolitik whores, but there are many others in the US who have more long-term, ethical views of our nation’s foreign policy.

Historically Taiwan has managed to implement democracy despite opposition from both China and the US government. That ought to tell you something about the long-term effect of the referendum: nil.

Hahahaha. A moment of humor…the 4th nuclear reactor is about the dumbest idea a government full of dumb ideas ever had. They were right to shut down that boondoggle. Wind power!

So far electric power bills haven’t changed. So you have no point. In any case, Taiwan has plenty of power alternatives…

A subtle statement.

Bill, hatred of the mainland is one of the distinguishing marks of Taiwanese. If you live here, and you don’t know that, you don’t know anything about Taiwan. If your Taiwanese friends haven’t told you that, well, I won’t complete that thought.

Taiwan has its own vibrant variant on Chinese culture, and its own relationship to the larger global culture. That is what Chen should build here. Further, in order to implement democracy, lots of cultural change will have to take place. Is Chinese culture, with its authoritarian social and political thinking, really compatible with democracy? Taiwan is going to become something with many different ideas from all over.

Finally, Bill, “Chinese” culture here is a political construction designed to oppress the Taiwanese and their culture, and prevent it from becoming a resource to oppose the KMT. Of course it has to go. It’s no more real than the Disney vision of American history.

I totally agree!

Vorkosigan

75

The US opposed democracy on Taiwan???

76

Little Buddha, I’m sure you have an excellent grasp of Chinese language and classical literature, but your remarks here show lamentable, lamentable lack of understanding of contemporary Taiwan, its politics, and its leadership.

I have very strong reservations about many of Chen’s qualities as a national leader, especially his impetuosity and populist tendencies, but there is no way in the world that he could possibly be described as venal or self-interested. For goodness sake, the man was Taiwan’s most brilliant lawyer. If he were intent on feathering his own nest and acquiring great wealth, he would have continued to earn a huge income from lawyering while throwing in his lot with the KMT to haul in whatever other benefits he might ask for, rather than giving it all up to fight against the odds at great personal cost for unquestionably honourable goals and ideals. If he had chosen to follow that oh-so-incomparably-easier path, he’d be just as rich and powerful now as Lien Chan.

He has made mistakes during his presidency, some quite grave, and at times has had me ranting and raving against his weaknesses and displays of poor judgment. But he clearly has a thousand times more to offer Taiwan than either of his opponents in this election, and he and his administration (which includes just as many highly capable and worthy officials as any of its KMT predecessors) have made a greater contribution to Taiwan in the past four years than I’ve ever seen from any other government here during a comparable timeframe in the past.

77

[quote=“Nikeh”]
A majority Americans would rather fight for Taiwan than most Taiwanese. It’s almost sad. Why…

Why should America come to the aid of a country whose people aren’t even willing to fight for themselves?[/quote]

Exactly.

Personally, I think all the mainland would have to do is:

(1) At 6PM Beijing time, nationalize all Taiwan owned property in China and freeze all financial assets.
(2) Launch a limited missile strike on CKS, Sungshan and Kaoshiung civilian airports as well as strikes on all ROC Air Force bases (concentrating on cratering runways and destroying command and control centers.)
(3) Blitz Matsu and Kinmen. Completely flatten and occupy. The ROC’s Army has neither the training or the will to resist.
(4) Sink 1 large freighter in Kaoshiung Harbor and 1 in Keelung Harbor.
(5) A limited number of car bombings against public facilities and assasinations of public officials (a la Tet 1968) to be carried out in Taipei by PRC sleeper/commando teams.

Taiwan’s economy would collapse within hours…it would be all over but the tears and there would be virtually nothing the US or anyone else could do about it.

78

Um…I don’t think so…he was ‘a’ lawyer, but not Taiwan’s ‘most’ brilliant lawyer.

Omniloquacious, are you in favour of the DDP? or CSB himself? I would probably vote for DDP if CSB isn’t the one running… :s

79

[quote=“blueface666”][quote=“Nikeh”]
A majority Americans would rather fight for Taiwan than most Taiwanese. It’s almost sad. Why…

Why should America come to the aid of a country whose people aren’t even willing to fight for themselves?[/quote]

Exactly.

Personally, I think all the mainland would have to do is:

(1) At 6PM Beijing time, nationalize all Taiwan owned property in China and freeze all financial assets.
(2) Launch a limited missile strike on CKS, Sungshan (Songshan) and Kaoshiung (Gaoxiong) civilian airports as well as strikes on all ROC Air Force bases (concentrating on cratering runways and destroying command and control centers.)
(3) Blitz Matsu (Mazu) and Kinmen (Jinmen). Completely flatten and occupy. The ROC’s Army has neither the training or the will to resist.
(4) Sink 1 large freighter in Kaoshiung (Gaoxiong) Harbor and 1 in Keelung (Jilong) Harbor.
(5) A limited number of car bombings against public facilities and assasinations of public officials (a la Tet 1968) to be carried out in Taipei by PRC sleeper/commando teams.

Taiwan’s economy would collapse within hours…it would be all over but the tears and there would be virtually nothing the US or anyone else could do about it.[/quote]

It would be most interesting if this post somehow made its way to the Chinese leadership, and they take up on your advice and successfully retake Taiwan.

You’d be the new hero of [Communist] China.

I can just see it now. Comrade Blueface, former US soldier and vietnam vet, paraded in Beijing, toasted, wined and dined. Becomes honorary citizen of Tianjin and Chengdu. Schools will be renamed after you. Upon your return to Taiwan, you would be invited to be a part of Taiwan SAR’s newly appointed legislative assembly.
:laughing:

80

Um…I don’t think so…he was ‘a’ lawyer, but not Taiwan’s ‘most’ brilliant lawyer.[/quote]
He was the top in his class, but he was just a junior lawyer specializing in maritime law. Not exactly thrilling stuff.