A Personal Statement from Zain Dean

Discussion Open Forum
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Let’s also remember-being guilty of something in a court of law and doing it are not the same thing. There are standards that the prosecution are going to have to meet. I don’t know what they are in Taiwan (ie, beyond a reasonable doubt as in the US?) but since there has been no trial, we can say nothing about his guilt. If I were in the prosecutors shoes, and if the standard was beyond a reasonable doubt, I wouldn’t like my chances. The fact that there is video of someone else driving the car away from the KTV joint does not make for a good case, regardless of when the guy was shown walking back. The fact that they have the KTV guy walking back on video doesn’t make for a good case against him. The prosecutors don’t have a good case against anyone, from what I’ve read about the case.

I don’t know the accused either, and I don’t think it matters. He has a right to his day in court. The previous youtube clips are disturbing. The media here loves to get family members crying on camera-and don’t get me wrong, I feel for them. But they are in no position to be demanding that this guy have a certain attitude toward them when he claims to have been not driving. Do they even consider the possibility that he wasn’t driving? It doesn’t appear so…which is sad. One would think they would want to know for certain who was responsible, and their attitude showed that they had already decided who was in the wrong.

This just gives me another reason not to go out and get hammered to the point of incapacitation. How can you defend yourself if you’re too drunk to function? Even if one does the right thing and has someone else drive, troubles may still ensue. Don’t drink and drive, but better yet don’t go out and get wasted at all.

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Different legal systems. There isn’t going to be a jury trial by Mr Deans peers here afaik. The judge in the case will make a decision, which can be appealed by either side if they don’t like the verdict. It could be a long out drawn legal process. Of course the all media like a bit of sensationalism, that’s how news sells.

After all if it wasn’t a foreigner involved in the first place this thread most likely wouldn’t exist. It’s news that expats want to hear about.

They want to understand how the processes work here.

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[quote=“Dragonbones”][color=#008000][i]Just a reminder to all: In accordance with the Rules, please do not make strings of back to back posts.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

DB, Moderator[/i][/color][/quote]

Also, don’t rock the boat.

Thank You, HHII

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[quote]Perhaps the prosecutor’s decision whether or not to file charges should be influenced not just by evidence of the crime, but also by public opinion.[/quote]If you take a minute to consider the means by which the public is informed, public opinion isn’t something a prosecutor wants to gamble with. Theoretically…

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[quote=“Toasty”]Can we please just lock this thread (and the other Dean thread as well)? It’s become increasingly clear that divergent opinions are not welcome on this topic. If this topic is too hot to handle for this site, I’d rather we just shut it down instead of carrying on with this farce. Look at where we are now. Any posts supporting Mr. Dean receive welcome or are left to stand unchallenged. Any posts suggesting he isn’t totally blameless or may have actually done what he has been accused of doing are subject to immediate and harsh rebuttal and attack by none other than the friends and associates of the accused himself.

I understand this is a tough time for those close to the accused, so I’m not going to restate any opinions I have regarding his actions. However, I think the way this topic is being dealt with isn’t fair or in any way approaching impartial.[/quote]

You mean you don’t like that the majority disagree with you.

You said yourself that there are divergent opinions, and yet complain that if anyone supports Mr Dean, their posts go unchallenged. That’s nonsense; you and others have challenged them–one poster vehemently so.

You’re upset because you’re outnumbered or you’re upset because right now you’re looking like your accusations are wrong.

Let the thread continue. It’s a fair and interesting discussion.

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The only accusations that count are from the prosecutor and as such Mr Dean has been formally charged.

There is only one thing that needs to be accounted for, and that is who was driving at the time of the young man was killed by Mr Deans vehicle.

The prosecutor obviously believes Mr Dean was driving at the time of the accident. Some people believe Mr Dean was not driving at the time of the accident.

Facts are, Mr Dean admitting he was too drunk to drive, asked for a driver to take him home, and was driven away from the KTV. KTV driver claims to have been let out of the car shortly after and was back at the KTV a few minutes later, before the accident happened. He claims Mr Dean drove himself home before any accident.

Mr Dean has stated on forumosa he was in the car at the time of the accident but was not driving the car. Mr Dean also stated he could not remember any accident occuring as he was too drunk and sleepy.

Mr Dean did write in his statement of forumosa that he did drive the car that night to his home after asking the “unrecognized” person driving the car to get out when he was near his home. He wrote he did not realize his car was damaged at the time he drove it home, nor that it had been in any accident.

A news reporter claims that the prosecuter stated he has evidence that Mr Dean was driving the car when the accident took place, which is why Mr Dean faces the charges against him.

So in the near future we may expect a court case to decide the outcome.

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[quote=“Stray Dog”][quote=“Toasty”]Can we please just lock this thread (and the other Dean thread as well)? It’s become increasingly clear that divergent opinions are not welcome on this topic. If this topic is too hot to handle for this site, I’d rather we just shut it down instead of carrying on with this farce. Look at where we are now. Any posts supporting Mr. Dean receive welcome or are left to stand unchallenged. Any posts suggesting he isn’t totally blameless or may have actually done what he has been accused of doing are subject to immediate and harsh rebuttal and attack by none other than the friends and associates of the accused himself.

I understand this is a tough time for those close to the accused, so I’m not going to restate any opinions I have regarding his actions. However, I think the way this topic is being dealt with isn’t fair or in any way approaching impartial.[/quote]

You mean you don’t like that the majority disagree with you.

You said yourself that there are divergent opinions, and yet complain that if anyone supports Mr Dean, their posts go unchallenged. That’s nonsense; you and others have challenged them–one poster vehemently so.

You’re upset because you’re outnumbered or you’re upset because right now you’re looking like your accusations are wrong.

Let the thread continue. It’s a fair and interesting discussion.[/quote]

This is a completely irrelevent comment (once again by friend of Dean).

My point was, and is, if this site is populated by Dean supporters – and if any opinions to the contrary are not welcome (and they clearly aren’t)-- then we should just close the discussion and relabel the threads “Dean support notices/updates.”

This site obviously has an agenda to support the guy; I am only saying to be honest about it, rather than the current “freedom of speech (just watch what you say)” policy of hidden agendas and attempts at digital manufacturing of consensus.

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But you’re still posting your opinion without anyone stopping you, and as such, it invalidates your point. :2cents:

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WTF are you wittering on about? By FAR the most prolific poster in this thread is anything BUT a supporter of Dean. Is he being censored? Are you? Thought not. :unamused:
“Digital manufacturing of consensus” Show us. Money where your mouth is. “Hidden agendas?” Christ, man, the laughter just never stops, right? What “hidden agendas” are these, exactly? And if they’re hidden, how come YOU can see them?
All I know for damn sure is that I don’t know shit about this case, neither does Sat TV, neither does Stray Dog, neither do you, and neither does anybody else who is contributing. And THAT my friend is what comes out loud and clear in this thread. Nothing more than that.
The chips will fall as they may. Of course I hope Zain’s telling the truth, because he’s my friend. Of course I hope he’s not being stitched up by the authorities, because he’s my friend. And sorry, but if you think me and people like me should be silenced because of this, then all I can say to you is something that would get me suspended again.
Censoring? “Watch what you say”?
Fucking bullshit.

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[color=#008000]If you have feedback about the moderating or site policy (rather than comments on the current thread’s topic), please post that in the Feedback forum area. Thank you.
DB, Moderator[/color]

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[quote=“Toasty”][quote=“Stray Dog”]You mean you don’t like that the majority disagree with you.

You said yourself that there are divergent opinions, and yet complain that if anyone supports Mr Dean, their posts go unchallenged. That’s nonsense; you and others have challenged them–one poster vehemently so.

You’re upset because you’re outnumbered or you’re upset because right now you’re looking like your accusations are wrong.

Let the thread continue. It’s a fair and interesting discussion.[/quote]

This is a completely irrelevent comment (once again by friend of Dean).

My point was, and is, if this site is populated by Dean supporters – and if any opinions to the contrary are not welcome (and they clearly aren’t)-- then we should just close the discussion and relabel the threads “Dean support notices/updates.”

This site obviously has an agenda to support the guy; I am only saying to be honest about it, rather than the current “freedom of speech (just watch what you say)” policy of hidden agendas and attempts at digital manufacturing of consensus.[/quote]

You’re wrong (again?). I’m not a friend of Mr Dean’s. I’ve met him a total of four times now, mostly because he wanted to donate a lot of items to the SPCA just before the accident as he was about to relocate. One of the four times was because he was at the home of a mutual friend who has been supporting him through the experience of losing his business, having his credibility destroyed, and being the victim of physical assault and threats against himself and his wife–all because of people like you who have already made up their minds that the lack of evidence against him probably means he is guilty. THAT is what I’m against–that you would so readily see a man’s life destroyed and so confidently support such when you have nothing more than circumstantial evidence, biased reporting, and your own opinionated viewpoint to go on. Shame on you.

If Mr Dean is found guilty, then you would have every right to call for whatever you believe to be a fitting punishment. Right now you are a bumbling member of a lynch mob who has been easily swayed by news media and pretty much nothing else. THAT is what’s wrong here. You can’t see it. You want to make up reasons why you should take such a stance. You want to invent MY reasons for standing up for a fair hearing for Mr Dean–that alone tells me you should put your pitchfork down and learn how to read statements more discerningly.

I’m basing everything I say here on what you have written. My opinion of you in this matter is based in fact. Rest assured, Toasty, that should you ever find yourself in the same unenviable position as Mr Dean, I and I’m sure many others here would be calling for you to get a fair hearing. You can be damned sure that Mr Dean certainly would. He is about the least vindictive person I have ever met, for what it’s worth.

Forumosa is for sharing opinions. Don’t run away when your opinion is found to be of the minority. Stand up for yourself. You believe Mr Dean should be condemned based on what you read in the news. Good for you. I admire your ability to see through a large grey area and separate it into absolute black and white. I question your integrity, though, given that you are supporting the destruction of a man who is so far innocent.

But you have a right to your opinion and, for sure, the pitchfork-and-torch mentality is clearly a popular one with the media and many who take it seriously. I just think you should wait to hear all the facts–and, preferably, legal judgement–before you go burning someone at the stake.

Again, I’m not a friend of Mr Dean’s; I’m all for a fair trial and nothing more. Keep the discussion open. Don’t be so scared, man. Stand up for what you so clearly believe in, no matter how much others think you are wrong to do so.

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[quote=“sandman”]All I know for damn sure is that I don’t know shit about this case, neither does Sat TV, neither does Stray Dog, neither do you, and neither does anybody else who is contributing. And THAT my friend is what comes out loud and clear in this thread. Nothing more than that.
The chips will fall as they may. Of course I hope Zain’s telling the truth, because he’s my friend. Of course I hope he’s not being stitched up by the authorities, because he’s my friend. And sorry, but if you think me and people like me should be silenced because of this, then all I can say to you is something that would get me suspended again. Censoring? “Watch what you say”? Fucking bullshit.[/quote]

Of course you stand by your friends in the darkest of times Sandman. What kind of friend would anybody be who doesn’t support their friends through thick and thin? Nobody wants to see anybody get stitched up for anything. You are not the cunty bollocks type of person who is going to be silent and not support your friends. I don’t believe anybody is suggesting you should not stand by your friends.

Nothing about this case is straightforward. When is anything always so clear? There will always be different interpretations of what people may believe is plausible. There are those who think all expats should stick together and stand up for each other regardless of the circumstances. Mr Dean has not been convicted of anything. Getting suspended on forumosa… well that’s just part and parcel of forumosa.

You may believe Michael Jackson is a kiddy fiddler but he was found not guilty in a trial. Does it change what you believe about MJ?

When I was living with DC from Bo Po Mo we used to have pretty instensive and heated debates about the OJ Simpson trial. Right from an early stage I was saying he would be found not guilty because the prosection was doing a poor job. DC was more than certain OJ was going to be found guilty. We watched verdict come in… needless to say DC was stunned, angry, and indignant, and could not fathom how anybody in their right minds could have found OJ not guilty of those murders. Many debated the trial everyday as to whether or not the defence team or the prosecutors would triumph. Mark Furhman and the gloves don’t fit, dodgy blood evidence, the defence claiming OJ was being stitched up. How many people did I know that was certain OJ was guilty of those murders.

I think the matter with Mr Dean has some very interesting aspects. Claims of evidence tampering, witnessess colluding, police corruption etc vs the case of trying to destroy the car even though it was known to Mr Dean to have been in an accident. Then there is the media who have initially released statements which have not been accurate. Thats pretty common in Taiwan it seems. How many posters have come out and said they believe Mr Dean is guilty?

Then there is this thread. :popcorn: Thechief makes some interesting claims, do we accept those on face value. I disagree with several.

[quote=“thechief”]All the evidence supporting the charges against Mr. Dean is circumstantial, at best.
And a large portion of what there is has been proven to have been tampered with, anyway.
There was no evidence placing Dean at the scene of the crime.
There was no evidence that he was driving his car that night, to the contrary, in fact.[/quote]

Plenty of people get convicted / aquitted on cirumstantial evidence.

What proof of evidence tampering has been offered? The trial hasn’t taken place so no proof has yet been shown.

Mr Dean himself said he was in the car at the time of the accident and was there at the scene of the crime. Doesn’t mean he committed it.

Mr Dean stated he did in fact drive the car that night, both to and from the KTV, but was not driving at the time of the accident as he stated the KTV driver was at the wheel at the time.

At least Mr Dean was granted bail and is not sitting in a jail cell on remand as could have happened when people are considered a flight risk. Ex President Chen wasn’t granted that as the government claimed he would be able to get a fake passport and slip out of the country unrecognized.

[quote]tommy525 wrote:
Tried to junk his car and is trying to leave the island. Doesn’t sound too innocent.[/quote]

[quote]Belgian Pie » Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:16 am

it should be considered that the victim himself caused the accident … [/quote]

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[quote]My point was, and is, if this site is populated by Dean supporters – and if any opinions to the contrary are not welcome (and they clearly aren’t)-- then we should just close the discussion and relabel the threads “Dean support notices/updates.”

This site obviously has an agenda to support the guy; I am only saying to be honest about it, rather than the current “freedom of speech (just watch what you say)” policy of hidden agendas and attempts at digital manufacturing of consensus.[/quote]

The following quotes were excerpted from the first eight pages of this thread. To me, there doesn’t appear to have been an immediate, massive rush to support Mr. Dean:

[quote]i just got a text message from a Chinese friend saying that an English guy killed someone yesterday and that he drives a benz…[/quote] Foreigner in a Mercedes involved in hit and run

[quote]But the news report said he bought a ticket to leave Taiwan after the accident and tried to have the car junked when it could have been repaired.[/quote] Foreigner in a Mercedes involved in hit and run

[quote]My god, it’s been a bad couple of days for wai gwor rens behaving badly![/quote] Foreigner in a Mercedes involved in hit and run

[quote]Tried to junk his car and is trying to leave the island. Doesnt sound too innocent. Duh.[/quote] Foreigner in a Mercedes involved in hit and run

[quote] Trying to flee the country and scrapping his car if that is true then what a wanker. Anyway innocent until proven guilty and all that. [/quote] Foreigner in a Mercedes involved in hit and run

[quote]Of course the primary tragedy is for the dead guy and his family, but if the suspect did as alleged, I can definitely understand how he might have panicked and frantically, in the stunned, drunken, horrific, shocking moments afterwards, searched desperately for a way out.[/quote] Foreigner in a Mercedes involved in hit and run

[quote]Yes tragic all around. Most people dont want to be responsible for killing someone with a motor vehicle. However, if he was drunk and driving. It does make things worse. Leaving the scene is a very bad thing to do in any case. And trying to destroy evidence adds to the guilt. Plus not owning up as it appears. Course all the facts are not in yet. [/quote] Foreigner in a Mercedes involved in hit and run

[quote]The general gist of the reports is that he was driving drunk, speeding, fled the scene of an evidently fatal accident, acted defiantly when confronted by the police, and displayed no remorse. The TV news has been particularly focusing on the man’s bad attitude after his arrest.

If all of those facts are correct, he deserves to receive a custodial sentence. Whether or not he spends time inside (he certainly would in the UK, but may be able to avoid it here), he’ll have to pay the victim’s family a very large amount of compensation, perhaps around NT$10 million, which apparently he can well afford.[/quote] Foreigner in a Mercedes involved in hit and run

[quote]Yes. I know the man well. He’s in for a world of trouble if he’s responsible for this accident.[/quote] Foreigner in a Mercedes involved in hit and run

[quote]But wait, if he had not run away but called the ambulance, the victim might still be alive today. Yes, I’d be very tempted to run, very tempted.But his actions killed another person.
Anyway, his life won’t be ruined, just may end up a lot poorer for compensation to the family.[/quote] Foreigner in a Mercedes involved in hit and run

[quote]Whichever way you spin this its looks pretty bad for the guy…[/quote] Foreigner in a Mercedes involved in hit and run

[quote]What this guy DID do was cold and calculating. He attempted to destroy evidence of his involvment and get out of the country. I also don’t buy the argument that a prexisting ticket is indication that he didn’t intend to flee. One could argue that it may have been an incentive to try to avoid responsibility for long enough to make it to the departure date.

If it turns out that the scooter driver, who I don’t really belive was the sole provider for the family, was at fault or partly so, it just makes this guys actions that much more tragic for him. By trying to destroy the evidence and get away with this he has ensured himself a hell of a lot more trouble.[/quote] Foreigner in a Mercedes involved in hit and run

[quote]Anyways I agree . . . that he should of turned himself in as if he has money as everyone is saying then why not help the family out as you killed someone that perhaps the family are relying on. You can’t bring or help the victim their life is over but u can at least do your very best to make amends anyway you can. he took another human life not money or property a life and a human one. Whether accidentally or not this is really screwed up.[/quote] Foreigner in a Mercedes involved in hit and run

[quote]You get drunk and kill someone in your car and you run away like an arsehole and your actions are somewhat justifiable, and the dead persons choice of head gear is questioned?[/quote] Foreigner in a Mercedes involved in hit and run

[quote]Forget the drunk driving, It will be difficult to ever know how drunk the guy was or if he was infact driving. What we know is that the guy fled the scene and there is strong indication that he attempted to destroy evidence of his involvement in the incident.[/quote] Foreigner in a Mercedes involved in hit and run

[quote]if I understand the story right, it seems hes pleading what will soon become know as the foreigners defense, i.e. too drunk to remember, which was also used a while back by another foreigner. I’m sure after a few days, and after the press, or police and whoever ask around a clearer picture will appear, so whats the rush, innocent till proven guilty and all that.[/quote] Foreigner in a Mercedes involved in hit and run

[quote]There is no way to justify driving drunk and there is no way to justify leaving the scene of an accident. I don’t believe a sane person would be panicked enough to lose the notion of what’s right and wrong. Especially when someone is lying on the ground after a nasty collision. If someone has the presence of mind to leave the scene, it usually says a lot.[/quote] Foreigner in a Mercedes involved in hit and run

[quote]This poor guy has set himself up for a universe of harsh judgements.[/quote] Foreigner in a Mercedes involved in hit and run

[quote]Leaves club at just before 5am, hotel boy is paid to drive him home, this places 2 people in the car.

Hotel boy claims he was ejected from car around the corner (he returns to work 6 minutes after leaving - seems to collaborate with this claim).

Then around 5am there is a fatal hit-and-run involving his car, but he claims he wasn’t driving.

Defence attorney scabbling to come up with plausable explanation. …[/quote] Foreigner in a Mercedes involved in hit and run

[quote]The Taipei Times . . . reports Prosecutors say;

[quote]Why Kinmen (Jinmen)? Was he in the mood for more drinking? :laughing: [/quote] Foreigner in a Mercedes involved in hit and run

[quote]With regard to the specifics of this case: As reported thus far, there is clearly a very strong case against the accused. The acts of which he is accused are extremely repugnant in all respects, and warrant very heavy punishment. If he is guilty as accused, I see absolutely no extenuating circumstances and will not have a grain of sympathy for whatever consequences he suffers. As a man of means, he can surely well afford to pay any amount of fine and compensation that the criminal and civil courts might possibly impose upon him. So if he is guilty as charged, these amounts should be set at their highest applicable levels, and he should serve at least two or three years in prison to properly reflect the severity of the crimes committed and their terrible impact on the lives of the victim and his family.[/quote] Foreigner in a Mercedes involved in hit and run

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It’s human nature to rush to judgement given the so called facts that were released by the media, many of which were proven to be incorrect. Thats why the accused get a trial date to present their version of events. The prosecution will present their version. The judge will issue a decision based on what he believes.

Once that is made there will be a further flurry and posts discussing the various aspects of the case.

The KTV driver hasn’t been charged. So if Mr Dean is aquitted will the police then look at prosecuting the KTV driver? Would the prosecutor appeal a not guilty verdict to a higher court?

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It’s human nature to rush to judgement given the so called facts that were released by the media, many of which were proven to be incorrect. Thats why the accused get a trial date to present their version of events. The prosecution will present their version. The judge will issue a decision based on what he believes.

Once that is made there will be a further flurry and posts discussing the various aspects of the case.[/quote]

I wasn’t knocking the folks here, or that wasn’t my focus. I was trying to show Toasty, and maybe others, that there was a genuine divergence of opinion about the matter.

I don’t know whether he’ll be acquitted, or what the prosecutors would do if he were. I guess it’s possible they might charge the KTV driver if Mr. Dean were acquitted, but that might be problematic.

But yeah, prosecutors here get a second, or even (I think) a third bite of the apple, or at least I think that’s what I’ve read.

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Yep, and defendents get the right of appeal as well.

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Yep, and defendents get the right of appeal as well.[/quote]

How about defendants, what do they get???

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Jesus, 55 pages of basically “You don’t know what happened that night!” “No, YOU don’t know what happened that night!” “No, YOU don’t know…”

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Yep, and defendents get the right of appeal as well.[/quote]

How about defendants, what do they get???[/quote]

Free media airtime, and maybe if they get convicted and get lucky, a show on National Geographic series Locked Up Abroad

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Man, time flies. I was surprised looking back that all this happened at the end of March. It must be very trying for all those involved in this horrible accident living under the shadow of this for this long.